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167 points sunshine-o | 2 comments | | HN request time: 0.001s | source
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exceptione ◴[] No.43572744[source]
The list of dropped components is quite large. The cryptsetup, cryptenroll, unified kernel images, kernel signing and systemd-boot work nicely together.

I think Systemd has a view that those things should reliably work together. I do not fancy a revival of the past where the user has to cobble a mesh of hopefully compatible libraries to achieve the same, taking weeks to study the Arch manual and resolving tons of gotcha's, all to be broken by next week's update.

The integration of all this stuff is now actively under test and maintenance with systemd.

And yes, the mentioned services also have an impact on the scope of service managing. Because if you have a unit that depends on a disk that needs to be unencrypted, this has to be resolved somehow in the right time.

I personally have had no need for systemd-resolved, but I think for *desktop* the list of droppable components is not large.

So maybe we should first have a conversation about the *desktop* vs *container-os* purpose?

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udev4096 ◴[] No.43573274[source]
systemd has definitely made huge improvements to boot security which not a lot of "systemd haters" see. this is a great post from lennart: https://0pointer.de/blog/brave-new-trusted-boot-world.html
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donnachangstein ◴[] No.43574018[source]
Most 'systemd haters' see boot security as unnecessary, or a toy no one would use, and that UEFI secure boot is a conspiracy orchestrated by Microsoft.

It fits the personality profile of not wanting to learn new things. After all, we didn't need it in 2002, so why do we need it now?

There is no fixing these people, so it doesn't make sense expending energy convincing them.

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1. M95D ◴[] No.43582325{3}[source]
That's almost entirely correct, with one exception:

> It fits the personality profile of not wanting to learn new things.

'systemd haters' learn a lot. They learn how to write manual boot scripts, set up mdev instead of udev, compile their own kernel, install their own u-boot or coreboot, strip binary blobs, etc. etc. They know MORE than the average systemd guy. They just don't want to learn systemd.

Isn't the whole purpose of systemd to ease and automate administration and configuration, so the user need not care? Doesn't that imply that systemd admins/users know LESS?

----

Now let me make my own characterization of 'systemd enthusiasts'.

These people are overworked sysadmins that hate manual configuration. They want it easy, everything automated, they want to not care about it, they want the distro to auto-do everything and not even ask, they want less admin work. Systemd does all these things for them and they are in heaven. They're so enthusiastic that they feel we should all be one big happy family under the systemd umbrella.

But they fail too see that no company or manager will tolerate people that are _not_ overworked.

When something becomes automated, people previously doing the manual job are fired. A 10 people non-systemd team that works day-and-night to set manually up boot, mounts, network, services, cron, backups, logs, etc., as soon as systemd automates the work, will be cut down to just one guy (or less) and he will still work day-and-night, same as before, doing the work of the entire team. And he won't be able to take break because there's nobody left to replace him.

They also fail to see that resilience comes from diversity. Uniformity, systems where software is identical, updates are identical, configuration is identical, permissions are identical, etc., will also fail identically and probably at the same time, and will be hacked identically and at the same time (by automated bots/tools).

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2. cf100clunk ◴[] No.43583955[source]
An enjoyable perspective on how workload can affect techno-tribalism. Like many who have worked in, or run, mixed shops over the years, I've lamented the interpersonal friction that can happen amongst camps. It can be corrosive, almost to the point of destruction, at which point I've had to fire people for using terms like ''hater'' or worse. Good riddance, because we had work to do.