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450 points pseudolus | 19 comments | | HN request time: 0.299s | source | bottom
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necubi ◴[] No.43576821[source]
Oh hey, Wesleyan on HN! I’m an alumnus (matriculated a year or two after Roth became president). Wesleyan has a rich history of activism and protest, and not always entirely peaceful (Roth’s predecessor, Doug Bennet, had his office firebombed at one point).

I’ve had a few opportunities to speak with Roth since the Gaza war started, and I’ve always found him particularly thoughtful about balancing freedom of expression with a need to provide a safe and open learning environment for everyone on campus. In particular, he never gave in to the unlimited demands of protestors while still defending their right to protest.

In part, he had the moral weight to do that because—unlike many university presidents—he did not give in to the illiberal demands of the left to chill speech post-2020, which then were turned against the left over the past year.

I don’t see any particularly good outcome from any of this; the risk of damaging the incredibly successful American university system is high. Certainly smart foreign students who long dreamed of studying in the US will be having second thoughts if they can be arbitrarily and indefinitely detained.

But I hope the universities that do make it through do with a stronger commitment to the (small l) liberal values of freedom of expression , academic freedom, and intellectual diversity.

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mlindner[dead post] ◴[] No.43578254[source]
[flagged]
1. _fizz_buzz_ ◴[] No.43579388[source]
> Many countries completely ban non citizens from joining political protests, even ostensibly western countries.

Which ones?

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2. immibis ◴[] No.43579767[source]
Germany bans pro-Palestine protests (officially they're still legal, but they've been arresting people since it began and they've just started deporting people for participating in completely legal protests) but I think that's a slightly different criterion than the one you asked for.
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3. switch007 ◴[] No.43579853[source]
In the UK we don't discriminate based on citizenship, or even if the protests are political or not !

Protest marches - no wait, the term is less specific: "public processions" - can have restrictions imposed for basically any reason. Restrictions can be imposed if (this is just a selection):

- They basically generate noise

- May cause prolonged disruption of access to any essential goods or any essential service

- May cause the prevention of, or a hindrance that is more than minor to, the carrying out of day-to-day activities

- May cause the prevention of, or a delay that is more than minor to, the delivery of a time-sensitive product to consumers of that product

Not forgetting there are probably 10-20 general Public Order Offences that can be used against a person, such as wilful obstruction of a highway or public nuisance.

Then we also have Serious Disruption Prevention Orders (SDPOs). SDPOs are civil orders that enable courts to place conditions or restrictions on an individual aged over 18 (such as restrictions on where they can go and when) with the aim of preventing them from engaging in protest-related activity that could cause disruption. Breaching an SDPO is a criminal offence.

And the cherry on the cake: by law you must tell the police in writing 6 days before a public march if you're the organiser (which is to say, get the police's permission)

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4. 3D30497420 ◴[] No.43579886[source]
Correct. Here's a DW video on it: https://www.dw.com/en/germany-to-deport-pro-palestinian-prot...

There is a fight over this being done with or without due process.

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5. ratatoskrt ◴[] No.43579946[source]
Laws around protests here in the UK are certainly problematic, but I haven't heard of ant cases where this would have been specifically used against students from abroad.
6. worik ◴[] No.43580144[source]
The subjects of His Majesty have never been free
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7. thyristan ◴[] No.43580359[source]
While the protests are per se not illegal, the people arrested aren't accused of just protesting, they are accused of supporting a terrorist organisation. The right to free speech isn't as all-encompassing in Germany as it is in the USA, so shouting the wrong slogans can very well get you in trouble.

Also, the right to protest in public only applies to German citizens: https://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/gg/art_8.html

Foreigners are usually still free to do it, but they don't have a constitutionally protected right to public protests.

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8. vixen99 ◴[] No.43580842{3}[source]
Technically we're subjects but the King has zero executive powers. His soft powers are perhaps another topic. Point being we're in effect, citizens and subject to the (very variable) laws of the country like any other country. Currently freedom of expression in the UK is highly problematic but that's a temporary issue with the current administration. No subjects or citizens in any country are ever free as in free beer. So I suppose you're correct.
replies(1): >>43581351 #
9. UncleSlacky ◴[] No.43581351{4}[source]
There are very very few people who can be classed as "British subjects", the vast majority are British citizens since at least 1983.

From https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_subject :

"Currently, it refers to people possessing a class of British nationality largely granted under limited circumstances to those connected with Ireland or British India born before 1949. Individuals with this nationality are British nationals and Commonwealth citizens, but not British citizens."

10. mpweiher ◴[] No.43582162[source]
No. What is not allowed is calls for genocide ("From the river to the sea") and support for terrorist organizations.

And yes, if you are a guest in a country, supporting genocide and terrorism can get you deported.

But the police has been extremely lax in enforcement. These protests still basically always have these characteristics and there is no action by the police.

It is pathetic.

11. mpweiher ◴[] No.43582184{3}[source]
Incorrect:

"They are accused of indirectly supporting Hamas, which is designated as a terrorist organization in Germany."

2nd sentence from your link.

Supporting terrorist organizations is not legal in Germany. Supporting terrorist organizations is not the same a being Pro-Palestinian. Unless you think that all Palestinians are terrorists, which I do not.

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12. immibis ◴[] No.43585082{4}[source]
Yes, and Germany considers protests against anything Israel does in Gaza to be support for Hamas, which is designated as a terrorist organization in Germany.

That's why I told you: officially, protesting is legal, but they still arrest and deport people for protesting.

This newspaper may not think they're the same thing, but the police do.

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13. immibis ◴[] No.43585115{3}[source]
> While the protests are per se not illegal, the people arrested aren't accused of just protesting, they are accused of supporting a terrorist organisation. The right to free speech isn't as all-encompassing in Germany as it is in the USA, so shouting the wrong slogans can very well get you in trouble.

Yes, that's correct. Anyone who protests and grabs the attention of the police is accused of supporting a terrorist organisation. That's why I added the information that although they protest completely legally, they still get arrested and deported. The pretense for the arrest and deportation is that protesting to stop the carpet bombing of Gaza supports Hamas, which is designated as a terrorist organisation.

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14. megous ◴[] No.43586018{3}[source]
Non-citizens in Germany have no free speech rights period. You get banned and deported even for making lectures about unfavorable topics, as it seems.

That's quite different from protesting, since you're not making anyone listen to you. Lecture/conference is an offer, that Germans and others may take out of their own interest to learn about what you have to say.

That also infringes on the German citizens, because you're attempting to limit them from what they may choose to learn.

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15. mpweiher ◴[] No.43587312{5}[source]
> Germany considers protests against anything Israel does in Gaza to be support for Hamas

This is patently untrue.

I live in Berlin and constantly see protests. Far from being too strict, the police are way to lax in enforcing applicable laws.

The Jewish community in Berlin is scared, because they feel completely left alone by the authorities. We have people running around freely in effin Berlin, right next to the Holocaust memorial calling of the extermination of the Jewish state and all Jews. And virtually nothing is being done about it.

It's perverse.

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16. thyristan ◴[] No.43587678{4}[source]
> Non-citizens in Germany have no free speech rights period. You get banned and deported even for making lectures about unfavorable topics, as it seems.

No, the right to utter your opinion in Germany applies to everyone, not only Germans. The constitution has two categories of people, Germans and Everyone, some rights apply only to Germans, some to Everyone. The right to assembly and public protests is one just for Germans, the right to freely utter your opinion applies to everyone.

However, that right isn't what Americans think when they hear "free speech" (which is why I avoided the term earlier): There are far more limits to it, like the criminalization of giving offense ("Beleidigung"), promoting or misinforming about Nazism and other crimes against humanity ("Volksverhetzung"), deadnaming, speaking ill of foreign heads of state or domestic politicians, and condoning criminal acts. Also, only an opinion is protected, not a statement of fact, no matter if it is right or wrong. For example, a journalist was fined for writing about chancellor Schroeder dying his hair. The court didn't even try to find out if it was right or wrong, it was a statement of fact, so unprotected, and it was offensive to Schroeder, so an offense ("Beleidigung").

So in conclusion you are kind of right in that there is actually no freedom of speech for anyone in Germany, not even Germans, that right simply doesn't exist. Its just that foreigners are treated the same as Germans, there is no difference in rights there.

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17. immibis ◴[] No.43587730{6}[source]
I live in Berlin, I've visited some protests, I constantly see police arrest people. I visited a camp in front of the Reichstag building. The organizers told me about ridiculous police behaviour. Then I saw some ridiculous police behaviour at that camp. Arrests and intimidation tactics. The police banned speaking any language other than German or English. I saw them take away some people in handcuffs for the crime of speaking Arabic. I know that was the reason, because the police told the leaders, who told the whole camp. I saw them "patrol" by walking in random straight lines through the camp, pushing away everyone who happens to be in the path of that straight line even if they could easily walk around. I did not see any threatening behaviour from the camp members, just holding signs and chanting, as you would expect at any legal protest.

I've observed street marchse too. Police are required to let these happen provided they are registered in advance. Nonetheless I see police barge into crowds (again being violent against everyone who happens to be standing in the straight line between A and B), grab someone seemingly at random, and haul them off to who knows where. One time I tried to film such a thing happening, and was shouted at, then kicked until I put my phone down, so. I won't be releasing that video for fear of further retaliation.

I don't believe Jews are feeling scared, but I don't actually know any Jews (or Muslims), so feel free to prove me wrong. Every synagogue has a permanent police watch outside it, even before the 2023 escalation of the Gaza genocide, and I don't hear of any crimes or attempted crimes there. Now look at the other side, and it's people getting assaulted, arrested and deported for protesting. I sure would be scared if I believed that Netanyahu did something wrong, because if the government thought I disliked Israel's genocide on Gaza, it certainly seems like I could be deported for that.

Interestingly enough, I heard of one cultural institution (but I forgot which) that's hosting a lot of anti-genocide events... because the government had already set a date for it to shut down, so it had nothing to lose. Something in the general vicinity of Möckernbrücke.

There was another cultural institution somewhere in Neukölln that was shut down, immediately, following the choice to host one speech one time about Gaza.

And there was a *Jewish center* that was raided by police for hosting a Yanis Varoufakis speech by video call. If Jewish centers should be afraid of anything right now, it seems to be the police.

It makes me angry when people continually deny police misbehaviour that I have seen with my own eyes, heard with my ears and felt on my skin. I have to wonder if it's a particular kind of terminal online-ness where things one reads on the internet feel absolutely true because it's the closest to truth that one ever engages with. The alternative is that I'm clinically insane and shouldn't trust my own lying eyes, which I don't think is true. I never go to protests any more, even to observe, because I am afraid of the police. Most of the pro-Palestine protestors (as opposed to the COVID-19 protestors) I've ever talked with have seemed like relatively reasonable people, and I never saw violence instigated by anyone other than the police. Unless, of course, you believe that signs and chants are violent terrorism, as Germany apparently does.

Someone told me it's not Germany-wide, and not federal thing, but specifically the Berlin police who are ruthless with Palestine protests, and that there's no problem with Palestine protests in any other part of Germany. I wouldn't know, since my eyeballs don't reach Germany-wide. Given the disconnect between media and observed reality in Berlin, I don't rely on the media for information about how the rest of Germany is doing on this issue.

What is your rebuttal?

18. thyristan ◴[] No.43587773{4}[source]
Thousands for weeks on end protested the carpet bombing of Gaza, Germans as well as Foreigners. Many respectable foreign and German organisations invited to participate and organized those protests. And only very few of those protesting were arrested or even investigated.

Those who were usually did something more than protest, like showing support for terrorist organizations like Hamas or ISIS by showing the respective flag, harassing counter-protesters, shouting controversial slogans like "from the river to the sea..." (which is thought to imply destroying Israel and therefore "Volksverhetzung", although I'm not sure if the courts are already through with that one) or just plainly calling for the killing of Jews or the eradication of Israel.

Actually, the police was very patient and tame with those protests, too patient and too tame for the taste of many. A common, not totally unjustified opinion was that if those protests were just Germans protesting about a strictly German issue (like "Stuttgart21" or "Startbahn West" back in the day) and behaving like the pro-Palestine protestors did, there would have been riot police tear-gassing and bludgeoning everyone within half an hour.

19. megous ◴[] No.43589261{5}[source]
Several counterexamples recently:

https://www.dropsitenews.com/p/video-donald-trump-germany-cr...

22:20 ("social center raid for a progressive resistance flyer") 26:20 ("hate crimes") 30:25 (shutting down a congress) ...