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    450 points pseudolus | 27 comments | | HN request time: 0.941s | source | bottom
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    sequoia ◴[] No.43569673[source]
    A lot of Americans support these attacks on universities. Why do people harbour this much animosity towards these institutions? Is there anything they could have done differently in the past decade or two to have broader sympathy now, or is people's ambivalence towards elite universities 100% irrational?
    replies(25): >>43569757 #>>43569818 #>>43570019 #>>43570075 #>>43570155 #>>43570204 #>>43570446 #>>43570539 #>>43574782 #>>43574858 #>>43575315 #>>43575659 #>>43576210 #>>43576225 #>>43577611 #>>43577837 #>>43577843 #>>43578372 #>>43578566 #>>43579373 #>>43580638 #>>43581074 #>>43581904 #>>43584634 #>>43585161 #
    1. lr4444lr ◴[] No.43570075[source]
    There are some reasons that I think you probably know, which don't receive enough time and attention

    1) Despite an appearance of being "left leaning" (according to polls of faculty political sentiment) they continue to gatekeep education behind prohibitively expensive tuition that is out of reach of lower economic strata without crippling debt, and have simultaneously struggled to produce graduates whose economic differential easily makes up for that expense and lost work time.

    2) They enjoy a tax free status while receiving significant tax money despite many failing to grow their student bodies in tandem with the growth of the US population, leading to people questioning whether they deserve those benefits as institutions that serve the public.

    3) There is a sentiment that basic literacy and numeracy of graduates has dropped over the last decades outside of a narrow area of studies, because of a shift to a model where students are customers buying a credential instead of getting an education.

    (These are all interrelated, of course.)

    replies(5): >>43574103 #>>43576471 #>>43576504 #>>43576752 #>>43577453 #
    2. insane_dreamer ◴[] No.43574103[source]
    > many failing to grow their student bodies in tandem with the growth of the US population

    this is mostly true of elite schools (who nowadays are mostly selling a brand more than an education), not so much of state schools

    replies(1): >>43575694 #
    3. chrisweekly ◴[] No.43575694[source]
    Ironically, many elite universities are actually either free or nearly free, for lower-income students. The super-rich probably don't care. While we middle-class families don't qualify for need-based aid, and are on the hook to pay outrageous sums, largely to subsidize the aid for others.
    4. kjkjadksj ◴[] No.43576471[source]
    Lower economic strata doesn't take on debt, they get aid and free rides, cherry work study jobs to put some money in the pocket too. It is the middle class or upper middle class that insists in eschewing their state school benefit for a more or less comparable school in another state (or without favorable scholarship and aid package) that take the brunt of the loans.
    replies(1): >>43578209 #
    5. bobthepanda ◴[] No.43576504[source]
    Also to some degree there is anti-elitist backlash after being told you need to have a bachelor's, which is very expensive at these universities, but also it's basically impossible to get an entry-level white collar job without one these days; and for a while the economy bifurcated with different outcomes for white-collar knowledge vs. blue-collar workers.
    replies(2): >>43576767 #>>43577169 #
    6. justonceokay ◴[] No.43576752[source]
    I have multiple family members that are frustrated with higher learning because their children came out of the system more liberal-minded than when they entered. In this politically divided climate they feel like the university system “stole” their children from them.

    In reality I don’t think people’s political opinions change very much and they are just mad that their children individuated.

    replies(3): >>43577084 #>>43577115 #>>43578960 #
    7. tmpz22 ◴[] No.43576767[source]
    And this anti elitist backlash will lead to… greater wealth inequality as the middle class is forced to cash out their equity and investments in a down market to be gobbled up by the top 1% like Elon Musk.
    replies(1): >>43577004 #
    8. bobthepanda ◴[] No.43577004{3}[source]
    While I know this, I will say there is a communication issue in which sneering and lecturing is not really an effective way to persuade others.
    9. cosmic_cheese ◴[] No.43577084[source]
    > In reality I don’t think people’s political opinions change very much and they are just mad that their children individuated.

    I think this probably the case as well. If I look back at how my own views shifted, the shift very likely would’ve happened regardless of if I’d attended university, assuming everything else was the same. It wasn’t the university that resulted in the shift as much as it was my getting out of my local bubble out into the world and experiencing it for myself.

    Basically any kind of life experience that brings a young person to actually think and more deeply consider the world around them is likely to result in some level of individuation and shift away from inherited views. It’s perfectly natural and healthy.

    replies(1): >>43577688 #
    10. SoftTalker ◴[] No.43577115[source]
    People's political opinions definitely change, especially with age and wealth.
    replies(2): >>43577344 #>>43585609 #
    11. jart ◴[] No.43577169[source]
    60% of the US workforce these days is white collar, and it's one of the great illusions of our time. Most of these jobs only exist to keep busy the 60% of the US workforce that has a degree. In the 1940's about 30% of the US workforce was white collar and only 5% had degrees. What caused this change? It's probably because blue collar workers made so much money and had so much leverage that businesses shipped all their jobs overseas. Blue collar people actually make real things and perform useful toil for society, whereas now they're working fake jobs for less money which they're told has higher social status. It's genius the way the system works. The way it takes from people (student loans, less pay) while persuading them they got a better deal. But how can you have a society where the majority of workers are administrators? Well you needn't look any further than America to find your answer. One day the music is going to stop and other nations, like China, whose workers held no such delusions of grandeur, will have the advantage. Their illusion is that the government is a dictatorship of proles, which makes people think it's high status to be a prole. Plus when your government is officially one big labor union, you can effectively ban unions from interfering with production.
    replies(2): >>43577812 #>>43582988 #
    12. cosmic_cheese ◴[] No.43577344{3}[source]
    They do change to some degree, but I believe that age and wealth are not nearly as strong of factors as popular culture might have one think.
    replies(2): >>43577762 #>>43578029 #
    13. ◴[] No.43577453[source]
    14. PaulDavisThe1st ◴[] No.43577688{3}[source]
    But the most likely life experiences to do that are ones that put a person in touch with new ideas and new situations. Universities are much better positioned to generate such experiences than, say, most jobs. To some degree, those that have attempted to be at least nominally more diverse (economically/racially/...) are also the sorts of places where students are more likely to meet other people who are not like them in some important ways, and this has always been the sort of experience that preferentially tilts most people towards liberal/progressive ideas.
    replies(1): >>43578377 #
    15. SoftTalker ◴[] No.43577762{4}[source]
    I guess it depends. 40 years later, I vote completely opposite to what I did when I was 18-20 years old.
    replies(2): >>43581092 #>>43582393 #
    16. xracy ◴[] No.43577812{3}[source]
    great illusions of our time, like there's not data to back it up?
    replies(1): >>43581114 #
    17. musicale ◴[] No.43578029{4}[source]
    Younger people with student loans, credit card balances, and good health might eventually become older people with retirement savings, investments, and poor health.
    18. erikerikson ◴[] No.43578209[source]
    I sure had to. Work study sure was nicer than the crap jobs I'd had but no cake walk: I graded a lot of homework and exams as well as helping a lot of rich kids ace their class.

    [edit: I should admit that it's been 20 years, things may have shifted a lot]

    19. ralfd ◴[] No.43578377{4}[source]
    I believe students are much more homogenic than you find in school (eg dumb people are around) or in joining the military (you meet conservative people).
    replies(1): >>43582952 #
    20. roenxi ◴[] No.43578960[source]
    > In reality I don’t think people’s political opinions change very much and they are just mad that their children individuated.

    That seems to be missing the elephant in the room - they sent kids in their most formative intellectual years to immerse themselves in a culture where there is a very high child:adult ratio. Then the kids come back with this wild culture that would make a lot of sense to a bunch of teenagers and young adults. It isn't just that the kids individuating, it is dumping them into one of the most elitist, authoritarian and artificial subcultures society maintains - populated mostly by near-juveniles I repeat - giving them independence to form themselves and discovering that dislocates them from their parents subculture.

    It should be obvious that will happen but parents tend to be pretty dumb. No real training course for parenting I suppose.

    21. tomrod ◴[] No.43581092{5}[source]
    That sort of breaks out as to personal values versus Overton window. It has been an extreme shift towards authoritarianism in the US -- to the point where case after case of folks with moral courage call it out despite where they stood even 10 years ago.
    22. lurk2 ◴[] No.43581114{4}[source]
    He's saying that the economic viability of the model is illusory.
    23. eszed ◴[] No.43582393{5}[source]
    Just curious: in which direction on the political spectrum have your preferences moved?
    24. PaulDavisThe1st ◴[] No.43582952{5}[source]
    There are many axes on which to measure homogeneity or diversity.

    I don't think you're wrong about the axes for "academic intelligence" or "political outlook". But those are just two of many. Geographic, racial, economic, class (in the European sense), language, culture .. these are all equally valid, and likely to vary more in a university than in a workplace (even in the military).

    25. eszed ◴[] No.43582988{3}[source]
    "White collar" labor, in a service / knowledge economy doesn't mean "not making real things". Most (?) people on this board do something software or science or product related. Software is real, even if it's intangible. Research is real, even if it's inscrutable. Heck, Design is real, even if it's ineffable.

    (Yes, yes, there's vapor-ware, and useless products, and certainly "fake jobs". Those existed in the '40s, too, and in any other time period or economy you care to look at.)

    In my view, the problem is that white collar workers stopped thinking of themselves as Workers. Any of us who rely on a company for a paycheck (and, perniciously, in the US for health insurance) aren't Capital, even if we make high salaries. Maybe we're aspiring to join that class - we'll hit the startup lottery, or FIRE, or our IRA portfolio will go up forever - but we ain't yet. (That's fine, by the way: I'm using Marxist terms, but I'm not a Marxist. Pursuing financial independence, and the real - even if remote - possibility of attaining it is what's made the US such a dynamic economy.)

    However, allowing our aspirations for wealth, or the relative comfort of white-collar jobs, to lead us to identify with the political goals of Capital - or worse, to adopt an elitist attitude towards people who work in what you call the "real economy" - is what's got the US into the mess we're currently in. That's the "genius" you identify in the present system, and the origin of the cruelty within it.

    In reality, we're all Working Class (well, 99% of us are - although that proportion is way out of whack on this board, of all places!), and we need to (politically) act like it.

    replies(1): >>43589193 #
    26. croes ◴[] No.43585609{3}[source]
    The biggest change happens if your mental horizon widens.
    27. jart ◴[] No.43589193{4}[source]
    A lot of white collar work is just larping as the 1%. It's due to the over-manufacturing of elites. Roles that exist to keep people busy while confering illusory social status aren't very useful to society. Freedom and usefulness comes from humility and devotion to others. For example, you don't need to be in the 1% to have financial independence. You just have to not spend money on things that cargo cult the 1% like a fancy home, fancy car, and fancy dress, since that's a weakness in yourself that the 1% exploits to keep folks dependent on paychecks. Refusing to covet what the 1% has is how you act like a true 99%er. Not through politics, but by changing what's in your heart.