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122 points foxfired | 6 comments | | HN request time: 0.41s | source | bottom
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mcv ◴[] No.43565395[source]
I wonder if the fact that we're not hired to write code, is also the reason we're not paid as much as some other roles. This is my big frustration: that senior programmers (in NL at least) are not paid as much as managers, POs, various kinds of architects, and even scrum masters.

A couple of years ago, I was freelancing for a company where I wrote a lot of excellent code. They had a bunch of data they wanted to do something with, but weren't entirely sure what or how, so I did that for them. Connected, visualized it, made it fast, and they loved it. And so did I. It was fun work, I talked to a lot of people about what they wanted and needed, and delivered that.

My freelance period ended, but I wasn't ready to leave this project yet, so I became an employee, but that turned out to be a massive step back in terms of income. Despite the fact that I worked closely with lots of stakeholders and solved complex problems for them, their internal rules didn't allow them to pay me as more than a code monkey. I felt all the non-code work I did wasn't being appreciated. Nor the code work.

I left, they ruined the application (it's apparently slow as molasses now), and now I'm about to go back. I guess I've made peace with the fact that they don't pay programmers as much as I think they should. (It's not actually bad pay, just not as much as non-programmers get.) But mostly, it was a fun project that taught me a lot, and I want more of that.

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sam_lowry_ ◴[] No.43565900[source]
This is the general culture in Europe. Techies do not get promoted and do not even have a possibility to grow to management. Everything is run by humanities people and we do not even have the right words to describe this situation, although some voiced their concerns for many years, see e.g. The Two Cultures [1] from 1959.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Two_Cultures

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lifestyleguru ◴[] No.43566356[source]
European societies are extremely class based which is brutally visible in UK, France, Netherlands, even Germany. INSEAD and other MBAs see techies as washing machine repairmen.
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1. mcv ◴[] No.43566511[source]
Netherland is actually extremely egalitarian. Managers are often just one of the team, you address everybody informally, we're all equals, etc. Except in pay. And especially in larger organizations. Managers and people on track to management are seen as the shit. Programmers are paid fairly well compared to the average job, but even if you're single-handedly pulling an important project, you're never going to make the same as people who push numbers, papers and money.
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2. whstl ◴[] No.43566898[source]
Europe is egalitarian in the surface but class-based deep down. Your word is worth as much as your title.

Of course I can't speak for every country but that's the reality.

I'm not saying that anywhere else is better, but in other places I worked there was no such illusion.

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3. lifestyleguru ◴[] No.43567385[source]
> you're single-handedly pulling an important project

Never do it on employment contract in Europe. Even if you really are and then quit your job, from next Monday everything will operate as if you never had worked there.

> you're never going to make the same as people who push numbers, papers and money.

That's why the top EU companies are loathed ERP company, perfumes and purses company, and obesity drug for Americans company.

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4. lurking_swe ◴[] No.43567747[source]
> informally, we're all equals, etc. Except in pay.

arguably the most important part. :) 2nd being team and company culture imo.

5. mcv ◴[] No.43575622[source]
This varies a lot per country. I know Germany is a lot more hierarchical, for example. They care about titles there. Here we don't.
6. mcv ◴[] No.43575656[source]
> everything will operate as if you never had worked there.

Well, they wrecked my app after I left. It was blazingly fast, and we has a very fast moving team. Now the team and the app are slow. (I don't even work there yet and I already know why it's slow, and I don't think it will be very hard to fix.)