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122 points foxfired | 7 comments | | HN request time: 0s | source | bottom
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mcv ◴[] No.43565395[source]
I wonder if the fact that we're not hired to write code, is also the reason we're not paid as much as some other roles. This is my big frustration: that senior programmers (in NL at least) are not paid as much as managers, POs, various kinds of architects, and even scrum masters.

A couple of years ago, I was freelancing for a company where I wrote a lot of excellent code. They had a bunch of data they wanted to do something with, but weren't entirely sure what or how, so I did that for them. Connected, visualized it, made it fast, and they loved it. And so did I. It was fun work, I talked to a lot of people about what they wanted and needed, and delivered that.

My freelance period ended, but I wasn't ready to leave this project yet, so I became an employee, but that turned out to be a massive step back in terms of income. Despite the fact that I worked closely with lots of stakeholders and solved complex problems for them, their internal rules didn't allow them to pay me as more than a code monkey. I felt all the non-code work I did wasn't being appreciated. Nor the code work.

I left, they ruined the application (it's apparently slow as molasses now), and now I'm about to go back. I guess I've made peace with the fact that they don't pay programmers as much as I think they should. (It's not actually bad pay, just not as much as non-programmers get.) But mostly, it was a fun project that taught me a lot, and I want more of that.

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sam_lowry_ ◴[] No.43565900[source]
This is the general culture in Europe. Techies do not get promoted and do not even have a possibility to grow to management. Everything is run by humanities people and we do not even have the right words to describe this situation, although some voiced their concerns for many years, see e.g. The Two Cultures [1] from 1959.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Two_Cultures

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1. mcv ◴[] No.43566471[source]
Techies can get into management, but they stop programming if they do. I've been told I could get into a higher pay scale if I took on managerial or administrative tasks that I'm bad at and have nothing to do with programming. I'd like to be appreciated for the stuff I'm good at, not for doing stuff I'm bad at.
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2. whstl ◴[] No.43566881[source]
Eng Manager here. At previous jobs I constantly had this assignment of "stop coding and only do code reviews". This to me is incredibly short-sighted as my code reviews are gonna be shit if I don't code.

Also managing a team of even 10 developers was the easiest job I ever had. Hire well, treat them well, talk with them routinely, solve conflicts, allow them to explore things.

The hard part of the job is of course functioning as a therapist for disorganised power-grabbing product people and shielding my team from their shenanigans. I'm so tired of it.

Every bad engineering manager I had two characteristics: they never have time to code but also never have to talk to me or any other employee.

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3. sam_lowry_ ◴[] No.43566969[source]
That's exactly the point. The expectation is that techies stop being techies if want to have a career.

This is exactly why we can't innovate in Europe.

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4. DrillShopper ◴[] No.43569132[source]
I hate to break it to you, but this also happens in the US - especially at huge companies.

The next step of my career progression at my current company is deciding whether I want to go into the continuing tech route as an architect or staff software engineer or if I want to go into the managerial / people leader route.

The later is quite more lucrative, but I would have to stop programming.

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5. mcv ◴[] No.43575591{3}[source]
Even just the existence of a staff software engineer role is something. I don't think this company has that, but I think that would be exactly what I wanted to do. Especially at this particular department.
6. mcv ◴[] No.43575678[source]
If I ever get in that position, I want an assistant to do all the paperwork, so I'll have time to code and talk to people.
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7. whstl ◴[] No.43614383{3}[source]
Paperwork was surprisingly easy so far for me. Lots of interviews and performance reviews but that was always very streamlined.

On the other hand I was always blessed with amazing teams, and still am. So maybe that counts!