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158 points nizarmah | 4 comments | | HN request time: 0s | source

A couple of months ago, I built this app to help identify people stuck under rubble.

First responders have awesome tools. But in tough situations, even common folks need to help.

After what happened in Myanmar, we need something like this that works properly.

It has only been tested in controlled environments. It can also be improved; I know BLE is not _that_ effective under rubble.

If you have any feedback or can contribute, don't hold back.

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eddythompson80 ◴[] No.43553008[source]
> It can also be improved; I know BLE is not _that_ effective under rubble.

It's a tough problem to solve because you're up against the laws of physics and the very boring (and often counterintuitive) "Antenna Theory". Bluetooth is in the UHF band, and UHF isn't good for penetrating anything let a lone concrete rubble.

To penetrate rubble effectively you really want to be in the ELF-VLF bands, (That's what submarines/mining bots/underground seismic sensors use to get signals out).

Obviously that's ridiculous. Everything from ELF to even HF is impossible to use in a "under the rubble" situation because of physics[1]. Bluetooth (UHF) might be "better than nothing" but you're losing at least 25-30 dBs (which is like 99.99% signal) in 12 inches of concrete rubble. VHF (like a handheld radio) can buy you another 5 inches.

Honestly I think sound waves travel further in such medium than RF waves.

[1]: Your "standard reference dipole" antenna needs to be 1/2 or 1/4 your wave length to resonate. At ELF-VLF range you need an antenna that's 10k-1k feet long. You can play with inductors and loops to electrically lengthen your antenna without physically lengthening it, but you're not gonna get that below 500-200 feet. The length of a submarine is an important design consideration when deciding on what type of radio signal it needs to be able to receive/transmit vs how deep it needs to be for stealth.

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1. genewitch ◴[] No.43554202[source]
My ham license let's me transmit on 2200 meter and 630 meter bands. I'm not allowed to use a 1100 meter or 315 meter dipole, either.

And I can only eirp 1000mW. I mean, legally. I can't eirp anywhere near that can you imagine the losses?

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2. subscribed ◴[] No.43555096[source]
I think you can use 5W eirp on 630 meter, at least that's consistent with my band plan :)

It looks that for 600m you could use a vertical wire with a lot of radials :) Maybe with a balloon?

But 2200 would be fun indeed.

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3. genewitch ◴[] No.43557874[source]
huh, 5W eirp. Either that changed or my memories did. cool. I also don't remember the 500W PEP ceiling, either. I thought you could drive it however hard you wanted to as long as your radiator didn't exceed [what i thought was 1000] 5000mW eirp.
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4. eddythompson80 ◴[] No.43559142{3}[source]
Always remember that all these regulatory/legal limits don’t apply in any emergency or life preservation situations. The FCC, by law and their own rules, can’t/won’t come after you if you emit on any band with any power saying anything if you happen to be “under rubble”.