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896 points tux3 | 16 comments | | HN request time: 1.201s | source | bottom
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jerf ◴[] No.43546861[source]
One of my Core Memories when it comes to science, science education, and education in general was in my high school physics class, where we had to do an experiment to determine the gravitational acceleration of Earth. This was done via the following mechanism: Roll a ball off of a standard classroom table. Use a 1990s wristwatch's stopwatch mechanism to start the clock when the ball rolls of the table. Stop the stopwatch when the ball hits the floor.

Anyone who has ever had a wristwatch of similar tech should know how hard it is to get anything like precision out of those things. It's a millimeter sized button with a millimeter depth of press and could easily need half a second of jabbing at it to get it to trigger. It's for measuring your mile times in minutes, not fractions of a second fall times.

Naturally, our data was total, utter crap. Any sensible analysis would have error bars that, if you treat the problem linearly, would have put 0 and negative numbers within our error bars. I dutifully crunched the numbers and determined that the gravitational constant was something like 6.8m/s^2 and turned it in.

Naturally, I got a failing grade, because that's not particularly close, and no matter how many times you are solemnly assured otherwise, you are never graded on whether you did your best and honestly report what you observe. From grade school on, you are graded on whether or not the grading authority likes the results you got. You might hope that there comes some point in your career where that stops being the case, but as near as I can tell, it literally never does. Right on up to professorships, this is how science really works.

The lesson is taught early and often. It often sort of baffles me when other people are baffled at how often this happens in science, because it more-or-less always happens. Science proceeds despite this, not because of it.

(But jerf, my teacher... Yes, you had a wonderful teacher who didn't only give you an A for the equivalent but called you out in class for your honesty and I dunno, flunked everyone who claimed they got the supposed "correct" answer to three significant digits because that was impossible. There are a few shining lights in the field and I would never dream of denying that. Now tell me how that idealism worked for you going forward the next several years.)

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npongratz ◴[] No.43547355[source]
> From grade school on, you are graded on whether or not the grading authority likes the results you got.

I took an exam in a high school science class where I answered a question with the textbook's definition exactly as presented in the textbook, complete with the page number the definition was found on. I knew a bit about the topic, so I then cited outside scientific sources that explained why the definition was incomplete. There wasn't enough room to complete my answer in the space provided, so I spiraled it out into the margins of the exam paper.

My teacher marked my answer wrong. Then crossed that out and marked it correct. Then crossed that out, and finally marked it wrong again. During parent-teacher conferences, the science teacher admitted that even though I answered the question with the exactly correct definition, my further exposition made him "mad" (his word), and because he was angry, he marked it wrong.

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ninetyninenine ◴[] No.43547807[source]
> he was angry, he marked it wrong.

That’s grounds for termination to me. Seriously. I would put this man out of a job and endanger the livelihood of him and his family for this kind of shit.

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tomrod ◴[] No.43547896[source]
And if you CAN'T terminate because of admitted emotional grading, the system is too tightly captured by outside interests to the detriment of the client: the student and society.

A teacher is a professional entrusted with the most important responsibility society can offer: training and educating the next generation. It must adhere to the highest of professional standards and expectations.

That we don't pay enough to require that without reserve is a statement on our societal priorities, and disconnected from the expectations that should hold.

EDIT: clarification/word choice

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1. rapatel0 ◴[] No.43548041[source]
Good watch - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waiting_for_%22Superman%22
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2. cratermoon ◴[] No.43548227[source]
If you like watching right-wing educational propaganda, sure.
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3. tomrod ◴[] No.43548430[source]
It wasn't received as right-wing propaganda at the time. Endorsed by Bill Gates and others less-informed to education research with leanings towards the left.

But it is definitely anti-education and proposes solutions that aren't justified, like the right-wing-aligned push for chartered schools (which tend to be religious in nature, hence the wholesale gobbling for it by the rightwing).

Stanford studies in 2009 & 2013 put the fork in superior performance claims -- no better and no worse than public schools on average. So the charter school miracle is really just cherrypicking with a side of encouraging (or, if malicious, enforcing) segregation (since poorer people both tend to be minorities and tend to not have capacity/time to jump through lottery hoops). With careful planning and policy structure, perhaps good charter schools could overcome their entrance bias (RIP college entrance for either economic class or historically disparaged category), but good luck getting anything like that from the political minds that brought you DOGE and the nonsensical trade war.

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4. Frederation ◴[] No.43548440[source]
Eh, both sides of the isle took issue with it.
5. MarkusQ ◴[] No.43548481[source]
So wait, so you've decided a film by the director of An Inconvenient Truth, that was praised by everybody from Bill Gates to Oprah, has won awards and gotten a 90% on Rotten Tomatoes is "right wing propaganda"?

You may want to recalibrate you sense of where the center is.

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6. tomrod ◴[] No.43548574{3}[source]
Agreed, commentator is confused. My sibling comment to yours pointed it out. It's important to keep clear what is straight up a propaganda effort and what has been embraced by the propagandists as supporting them despite it not being a propaganda effort. Muddied waters helps no one.
7. morgoths_bane ◴[] No.43549169{3}[source]
Bill Gates and Oprah are both billionaires. Billionaires in general want solutions that defend capital. Privately run schools that receive government funding, in addition to tuition, while also being able to set their own curriculum free from the state is certainly within their collective class interest.

Many seem to make the mistake of assuming that one’s allegiance to the US Democratic Party means that the individual is a leftist, that cannot be further from the truth. The most recent presidential election I hope would have dispelled such myths however I am not certain if that is the case. That said, the US Democratic Party is a right centrist party. I fail to see how a film with endorsements from Bill Gates and Oprah Winfrey is convincing evidence to show that this film is not rightwing propaganda. All conversations within the Overton Window of acceptability within the US are going to be right of center inherently, including films like this one.

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8. emmelaich ◴[] No.43549281[source]
These days, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stand_and_Deliver would be considered right wing propaganda.

It's based on the true story of a mathematics teacher in east L.A.

9. ◴[] No.43549315{3}[source]
10. MarkusQ ◴[] No.43549528{4}[source]
If you think _all_ of the Overton Window is "right of center" than you are surely miscallibrated (there's even a meme floating around that describes this exact conceptual error).
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11. matthewowen ◴[] No.43549712{3}[source]
> segregation (since poorer people both tend to be minorities and tend to not have capacity/time to jump through lottery hoops)

charter schools tend to have _more_ minority students than public schools. eg in philadelphia, charter schools are 80% black/hispanic versus 71% for the public schools. nationwide they are 60% black/hispanic vs 42% for public schools (https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2024/06/06/us-public...). they're also generally lower income than public schools.

this is not super surprising because families with money already get school selection within public systems by virtue of spending more to live in better catchments.

i don't really have an opinion on charter schools being good or bad, but at least from what i've seen their primary audience is lower income families (often minorities) who look at their local public school and decide it's not good enough.

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12. tomrod ◴[] No.43549835{4}[source]
Aye. This is captured in the next sentence, perhaps the phrasing was not clear:

> With careful planning and policy structure, perhaps good charter schools could overcome their entrance bias

It is good when they do, and it is easy to go awry.

13. grg0 ◴[] No.43550432{5}[source]
His calibration is perfectly fine. There is no left left in the US, as is obvious from the crack down of unions and welfare and the privatization of all aspects of society. At best, you get center-right representation in Congress (who represent the elite, not the working class.)
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14. tomrod ◴[] No.43550969{6}[source]
While you and I ape on hackernews, the American Left is currently filibustering in the Senate.

The left is real, adapts to what can work, and learns.

15. cratermoon ◴[] No.43551853{3}[source]
It's a pro-school-choice anti-teachers union film. Make what you will of that.
16. 8bitsrule ◴[] No.43552774{6}[source]
In my reading of US history, there has never been a left that had any power in the US. Oh it might be allowed to make leftish noises, but as soon as it attempted to assert itself ...

On Sep 15, 1917, U.S. Department of Justice agents made simultaneous raids on forty-eight IWW meeting halls across the country ... arresting, jailing and convicting 165 leaders.

Want more ... see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palmer_Raids

"a series of raids conducted in November 1919 and January 1920 by the United States Department of Justice under the administration of President Woodrow Wilson to capture and arrest suspected socialists, especially anarchists and communists, and deport them from the United States."