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247 points po | 15 comments | | HN request time: 1.965s | source | bottom
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YZF ◴[] No.43531276[source]
I feel like we had a discussion of this crash in the past. Would be nice to find those threads.

Feels like we're missing a piece of the puzzle in this story. Maybe something else happened over that year? Politics? The story starts as you'd expect. Accidents happen. Support. Returning to duty. What went wrong?

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avidiax ◴[] No.43531447[source]
My feeling is that the F-35 is "too big to fail". They needed to blame the pilot, and certainly didn't need anyone familiar with the defects of the plane in a prominent command or as a general.

So they fire the guy, and promote someone else that can be relied on to say that the F-35 has no more defects than any other plane had at this point in the program, and we can trust the US military industrial complex to deliver the F-47 in a similar fashion.

At the same time, you send a message: eject when your plane is misbehaving and you'll end your career. Sure, there's a risk that someone won't eject when they should, but there's also a chance that you'll be able to cover up another malfunction when the pilot nurses the plane back to base.

Did Pizzo say anything disparaging about the F-35? I doubt it. But when you've got billions of dollars of revenue/potential embarrassment on the line, you don't take chances.

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1. jandrewrogers ◴[] No.43531952[source]
The F-35 was designed for export. The F-22 wasn’t and I suspect the F-47 is not either. There are different objectives at work here.

The F-35 is technically capable but even that is subject to export controls despite being purpose-built for export. A lot of European companies have a large stake in the success of the F-35 in its various versions because they are building it for European customers.

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2. ashoeafoot ◴[] No.43531981[source]
What european companies built the F35? Especially what part of the software is from Europe ?
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3. blobbers ◴[] No.43532021[source]
This is a really interesting 'first thought'. "Designed for export"

Not the typical mindset of someone wanting true superiority through military power. Makes you think twice.

The F35 is expensive, keeps the defense apparatus going, and ultimately gets paid for by other countries. F22 barely reached production, so F47 will be interesting.

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4. guappa ◴[] No.43532028[source]
I think at large european industry has more stake in F-35 not being bought, and local planes be used instead.
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5. blobbers ◴[] No.43532040[source]
BAE systems is responsible for about 15% of production, things from rear fuselage etc.

Rolls-Royce builds the LiftSystem for the F-35B variant.

Martin-Baker builds the ejection seats for all F-35s.

Leonardo builds the wing sets.

Rheinmetall is planning to build fuselage for a large number.

Kongsberg developed the Joint Strike Missile meant to be carried inside the fuselage to maintain stealth profile while engaging targets at long ranges.

6. jandrewrogers ◴[] No.43532151[source]
The internal conflict is that the European planes that exist are nowhere as capable as the F-35.

While the European defense contractors may promise a comparable plane, they have a poor track record of delivering such a thing anywhere close to the near future.

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7. jandrewrogers ◴[] No.43532182[source]
The F-35 is cheap for what it is capable of. F-22 and F-47 are immaterial. And the export F-35 is nerfed to some extent.

The unfortunate reality, which the US is exploiting, is that Europe would struggle to produce an equivalent of the nerfed F-35, never mind one that hadn’t been nerfed. As a consequence, the US can sell nerfed F-35s all day. There aren’t many alternatives currently. 4.5 gen aircraft aren’t competitive in a serious conflict and everyone knows it. Even the US has to contend with that reality.

8. guappa ◴[] No.43532222{3}[source]
I have my doubts that the F-35 is anywhere as capable as advertised.
9. jajko ◴[] No.43532467{3}[source]
Well unless we in Europe want to do in direct conflict with US (ie for Greenland), this is mostly irrelevant extra capability. As Ukraine shows, peer conflicts are won by other means, not stealth air superiority over sheep herders with AKs.

Some general's wet dream of dogfights in Maverick's style are modern day fantasies. What those planes are used for are just lobbing glide bombs or shooting missiles. Their biggest enemy is on ground. Sure, small radar signature helps massively but that's not enough. Otherwise US would send 500 F-35 into North korean airspace and wipe out most of its military... not going to happen.

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10. dgroshev ◴[] No.43532734{4}[source]
> As Ukraine shows, peer conflicts are won by other means, not stealth air superiority

I don't think you can conclude that when neither of the belligerents has the capability. As Gulf War shows, training and capabilities (including stealth) do enable SEAD/DEAD to an extent that unlocks air superiority.

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11. guappa ◴[] No.43532878{5}[source]
Perhaps you're not aware that this happened? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran%E2%80%93U.S._RQ-170_incid...

USA has air superiority only against 3rd world countries, and even then, history shows that air superiority has never won any war.

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12. dgroshev ◴[] No.43533032{6}[source]
I don't understand what that link is supposed to prove. A single F-117A getting shot down in Yugoslavia due to complacency and chance doesn't negate Nighthawks bombing SAM defended areas with impunity. Iraq had a strong and integrated AD network for the time.

Air superiority alone doesn't, but it's a massive force multiplier.

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13. guappa ◴[] No.43533144{7}[source]
I sent a link about Iran, you comment about Jugoslavia.

You don't have to read my link, but you can also skip on making completely unrelated comments if you don't feel like doing the reading.

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14. dgroshev ◴[] No.43533458{8}[source]
I read it and I know about that case. However, as I said I'm struggling to see your point.

I guessed you meant that that one case proves something about air superiority or Iran having an advantage over USAF, so I responded with a historical parallel.

15. jajko ◴[] No.43535804{5}[source]
I talk about peer conflict, which Gulf war wasn't. Old soviet tech, poorly trained soldiers with very low morale doesn't make them anyhow a peer to US army of that era. It was just a variant of that shooting goat herders, defenseless even against Apache choppers who have 0 stealth and fly low & slow.