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247 points po | 56 comments | | HN request time: 2.517s | source | bottom
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YZF ◴[] No.43531276[source]
I feel like we had a discussion of this crash in the past. Would be nice to find those threads.

Feels like we're missing a piece of the puzzle in this story. Maybe something else happened over that year? Politics? The story starts as you'd expect. Accidents happen. Support. Returning to duty. What went wrong?

replies(2): >>43531318 #>>43531447 #
avidiax ◴[] No.43531447[source]
My feeling is that the F-35 is "too big to fail". They needed to blame the pilot, and certainly didn't need anyone familiar with the defects of the plane in a prominent command or as a general.

So they fire the guy, and promote someone else that can be relied on to say that the F-35 has no more defects than any other plane had at this point in the program, and we can trust the US military industrial complex to deliver the F-47 in a similar fashion.

At the same time, you send a message: eject when your plane is misbehaving and you'll end your career. Sure, there's a risk that someone won't eject when they should, but there's also a chance that you'll be able to cover up another malfunction when the pilot nurses the plane back to base.

Did Pizzo say anything disparaging about the F-35? I doubt it. But when you've got billions of dollars of revenue/potential embarrassment on the line, you don't take chances.

replies(5): >>43531521 #>>43531526 #>>43531548 #>>43531770 #>>43531952 #
1. JumpCrisscross ◴[] No.43531521[source]
> My feeling is that the F-35 is "too big to fail"

Allies cancelling orders may force Washington’s hand: the cost of additional jets, parts, et cerera skyrocket if spread over fewer planes.

replies(2): >>43531556 #>>43531756 #
2. pjmlp ◴[] No.43531556[source]
That is only happening thanks to the way US view on the world has changed, and the remote kill switch used against Ukrainian jets.

US has killed the allies trust.

Had these two events not happened, and most likely sales would not have been cancelled regardless of the F-35 issues.

replies(4): >>43531589 #>>43531596 #>>43531651 #>>43531781 #
3. kelnos ◴[] No.43531589[source]
> the remote kill switch used against Ukrainian jets.

Could you provide some references to this? A quick search only turned up denials that such a kill switch exists.

replies(2): >>43531968 #>>43532235 #
4. JumpCrisscross ◴[] No.43531596[source]
> only happening thanks to the way US view on the world has changed

Sure. My point is it does become small enough to fail if its effective price to taxpayers doubles due to allies cancelling orders.

> remote kill switch used against Ukrainian jets

Source?

replies(1): >>43531967 #
5. daemoens ◴[] No.43531651[source]
No such kill switch exists, the US stopped providing electronic warfare intelligence that made the jets more survivable. The stoppage of all military aid was significantly more damaging.
replies(6): >>43531740 #>>43531777 #>>43531806 #>>43531824 #>>43531971 #>>43532750 #
6. XorNot ◴[] No.43531740{3}[source]
Yeah this is both bad but also being heavily misreported: the US can't shutdown hardware remotely, but loss of access to proprietary software effectively disables critical functionality which can effectively render a platform useless.

Up till now, there was no demonstrated risk of this happening - but that's a broken trust which won't be repaired for generations, if ever.

replies(3): >>43532050 #>>43532646 #>>43532681 #
7. atmosx ◴[] No.43531756[source]
A common misconception - often echoed on this site - is that NATO allies and the U.S. operate on equal terms. They don’t. If the U.S. wants to sell 100 F-35s to European nations, it will happen.

Even today, with all this talk around NATO, there’s a massive U.S. military presence at NATO bases across Europe.

These forces are, in effect, under U.S. control, stationed in countries like Germany and Italy. And if Germany suddenly decided it wanted them gone - well, it’s not their call.

TL;DR: Life on the empire’s periphery might be comfortable, but you don’t get to choose your enemies - and you still have to pay your dues, or else.

replies(4): >>43532017 #>>43532147 #>>43532247 #>>43542658 #
8. wongarsu ◴[] No.43531777{3}[source]
They also refuse to update the electronic countermeasures systems installed in Ukraine's F16. Not a kill switch, but it is impacting the usefulness of the planes.

Whether actual kill switches exist is unknown. But if you were a European country, would you take the chance of buying fighters from a country threatening to invade multiple of your allies based on their assurance that the rumors about kill switches are nothing but unsubstantiated rumors?

replies(1): >>43532046 #
9. maxglute ◴[] No.43531781[source]
My tinfoil hat theory is perversely US probably wants LESS foreign F35 orders. US accounts for 80% of long term F35 procurement (~2500/3100). Capitalization / replacement of airframes across US forces is at attrocious levels. If anything US better off absorbing 100% of next 20 years of LH production, and get full F35 buy years earlier, i.e. by late 2030 instead of projected 2045s sharing with partners. Especially now LH seems to have finally sorted out Tech Refresh 3. US probably wants LH to focus on upgrading/delivering US airframes and get as much US airframes to TR3 and then block4 standards. IIRC airforce general said he would not want take pre TR3 F35s to Pacific fight. If US is serious about countering PRC in decade of concern, they need all the airframes.
replies(1): >>43531918 #
10. libertine ◴[] No.43531806{3}[source]
The kill switch first reported wasn't for jets, but was for HIMARS[0], which stopped receiving data for strikes.

But everyone viewed this kill switch as a way broader than HIMARS, and rightfully so.

It will be foolish to assume that the USA has the capacity to turn HIMARS targeting capacity off, literally incapacitating the system which was built in the 90s, but somehow won't be able to kill switch a F35... This is disingenuous.

No country should trust their national security on the whims of one guy sitting in the White House, that can decide to side with the enemy and make your jets stop working because of disabled services.

[0]https://x.com/olliecarroll/status/1897340316942000271

replies(1): >>43532326 #
11. BartjeD ◴[] No.43531824{3}[source]
The USA commander in chief said otherwise; You're spreading disinformation ;)
12. pyrale ◴[] No.43531918{3}[source]
If we follow your logic, they would still want the orders ; they would simply look for ways to avoid fulfilling them.
replies(1): >>43532030 #
13. pjmlp ◴[] No.43531967{3}[source]
https://www.zona-militar.com/en/2025/03/10/the-u-s-has-repor...

One of many.

14. pjmlp ◴[] No.43531968{3}[source]
https://www.zona-militar.com/en/2025/03/10/the-u-s-has-repor...
15. pjmlp ◴[] No.43531971{3}[source]
Tomato tomato, they disabled features the allies relied on, so in practice it is a kind of kill switch.
16. mcv ◴[] No.43532017[source]
> They don’t. If the U.S. wants to sell 100 F-35s to European nations, it will happen.

How do you imagine that will work? The US may have to lower the price more than they can afford to. Some countries have already cancelled their F-35 orders. You can't force someone to buy what they don't want.

replies(3): >>43532066 #>>43532133 #>>43532822 #
17. maxglute ◴[] No.43532030{4}[source]
For a 1-2 years, maybe, as seen with JP, but for 10+ years? That's ~200+ airframes. LH already have TR3 backlogs, and TBH if you follow the LH TR / F35 SaaS drama (LH contract essentially held DoD hostage), I'm would not be surprised if DoD doesn't want to slap LH with less global orders so they can solely focus on US program.
18. guappa ◴[] No.43532046{4}[source]
Well denmark is going ahead to buy F-35 from their enemy that wants to invade them.
replies(3): >>43532172 #>>43532226 #>>43532866 #
19. guappa ◴[] No.43532050{4}[source]
> the US can't shutdown hardware remotely

And you know this because you've personally audited those planes?

replies(1): >>43532463 #
20. ggm ◴[] No.43532066{3}[source]
The implications are that non financial or indirect financial leverage would be used to make you "want" to complete purchase.
replies(1): >>43532250 #
21. chgs ◴[] No.43532133{3}[source]
> You can't force someone to buy what they don't want.

The opium wars would disagree

replies(2): >>43532186 #>>43533163 #
22. Propelloni ◴[] No.43532147[source]
That's a fantasy, unless you think Germany is occupied by the USA. But that's not the case. Occupation ended in 1954, since then the USA military is stationed in Germany (and Italy) due to contracts. This so called deployment contracts have been confirmed in 1990, when Germany became a sovereign nation again. I know, the current USA is not big on "rule of law" anymore, but even a bad deal maker should understand that there is not much to win in a war over bases they get for free now. (I'm not saying that maintaining those bases is cheap, but that's more on how the USA runs military bases than anything else.)

I find it refreshing, however, that the "we are the evil empire now" idea is getting out of the closet. Call a spade a spade.

replies(2): >>43532909 #>>43533304 #
23. zimpenfish ◴[] No.43532172{5}[source]
Regretting it though[0] - "Rasmus Jarlov, chairman of the Danish Parliament’s Defence Committee, has expressed regret over the decision to purchase the F-35. [...] He now advocates for reassessing Denmark’s strategic dependency on the United States and calls on European allies to consider doing the same."

[0] https://www.armyrecognition.com/news/aerospace-news/2025/den...

24. JumpCrisscross ◴[] No.43532186{4}[source]
The United States using military force against the home territory of a NATO member basically guarantees Chinese troops and weapons in Canada and Mexico. We would (deservedly) force the world to ally against us as we’d have proven ourselves to be an expansionist menace.
replies(1): >>43535236 #
25. benterix ◴[] No.43532226{5}[source]
The made that decision earlier and it's not sure they're going to follow though.
26. benterix ◴[] No.43532235{3}[source]
The name is imprecise and causes endless semantic discussions, what happened is lack of updates that render the aircraft vulnerable. Some will argue it's the same, some will disagree.
27. Sabinus ◴[] No.43532247[source]
It's only been months of the Trump admin and already the imperial attitudes are coming out. It's 2025, not 1900. Converting the US into an empire isn't going to go as well as you think it will.
replies(1): >>43532729 #
28. benterix ◴[] No.43532250{4}[source]
Well that period seems to be ending right in front of our eyes.
29. jajko ◴[] No.43532326{4}[source]
I find it curious that Israel managed to convince US that they can run their own firmware, (most probably) bypassing all this. I mean do get that region politics, oil and Iran and all, plus who sits in US power places but still.

Or why Europeans didn't insist to get same version (probably no leverage). Well any next armament purchase by Europe thats smarter than a lead bullet should have full code delivery with all build processes. Still not 100% perfect scenario but least minimum acceptable.

replies(3): >>43532760 #>>43532781 #>>43532821 #
30. XorNot ◴[] No.43532463{5}[source]
If people are going to declare there's definitely a kill switch, then the burdens on them to provide proof.

The story being reported as a "kill switch" does not include this capability existing or being used.

replies(1): >>43532517 #
31. guappa ◴[] No.43532517{6}[source]
I think they're saying there might be one, and we no longer trust the USA to believe there isn't one (and I can't really understand why we ever did, USA has been an unreliable ally even before trump).

You made the extraordinary claim that the USA has no kill switch. Where's the proof to your claim?

replies(1): >>43532733 #
32. fc417fc802 ◴[] No.43532646{4}[source]
> can't shutdown hardware remotely, but loss of access to proprietary software

By what mechanism is this mediated? Because that sounds awfully similar to a kill switch in terms of the end result. Analogy by way of enterprise software: "We didn't remotely disable the software you purchased from us. Rather our server simply refuses to service your requests which happen to be required for the software to function." (Evil laugh from man with goatee immediately follows this statement obviously.)

33. georgemcbay ◴[] No.43532681{4}[source]
> the US can't shutdown hardware remotely

I agree with the assertion that there's no proof of a full killswitch based on known past events, but the above quoted statement is also a lot more definitive than I'm willing to be.

With a fighter jet as dependent upon electronic support systems as the F35 and which is sold around the world why wouldn't you put a highly classified backdoor killswitch into it just in case?

The idea that such a killswitch might exist is one that could have always reasonably been pondered, what's new is any/all non-US "Western" governments having to seriously entertain the idea that they would end up in a situation where the US would have a reason to use it against them.

34. neor ◴[] No.43532729{3}[source]
Saying that military action is not off the table to take Greenland is literally insane.

Greenland has always been an ally, if for safety reasons the US needs more military presence on the island they could have just asked for it and it would most likely have been approved.

There is zero reason to use force, but if the US would take such steps I wouldn't be surprised if Europe starts replacing the dollar as reserve currency. This could trigger other nations like China to follow. This move would hurt the US economy way worse than the current trade war does.

35. randomcarbloke ◴[] No.43532733{7}[source]
What an absurd argument to justify the baseless idea.

American-made systems are present in most western developed military hardware, there might be backdoors or killswitches in any of it.

replies(1): >>43532861 #
36. exe34 ◴[] No.43532750{3}[source]
A system that has to call home to work and is no longer being replied to is by any functional definition under a kill switch. The orange buffoon pushed a switch in Amerikka Oblast and the weapon can no longer defend itself.
37. exe34 ◴[] No.43532760{5}[source]
> next armament purchase by Europe

Or buy European.

38. Gud ◴[] No.43532781{5}[source]
The smart European nations didn’t buy the F-35 to begin with.
39. libertine ◴[] No.43532821{5}[source]
> Or why Europeans didn't insist to get same version (probably no leverage).

I don't think it was a matter of leverage, but more of a blind trust in US Institutions, and denying the reality of their collapse.

No one would have believed at any point in the last 80 years that the US would be threatening to invade and annex Canada or Greenland, all while having a group of protected billionaires promoting the collapse of the European Union, the rise of nazism and the protection of a Russian autocratic regime.

40. Cthulhu_ ◴[] No.43532822{3}[source]
The F-35 was sold to us as an important multi billion business deal, with lots of European companies being promised to be subcontractors or technology partners; https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lockheed_Martin_F-35_Lightning... has a good overview of how much was involved. Basically, you scratch my back, we'll scratch yours kind of deal.

In hindsight, the project was (as expected) over budget etc. I wish our government(s) had given that money to European fighter jets instead. There's a chance the US will remote disable the jets that have been put into service now, or withold service / spare parts.

replies(1): >>43534902 #
41. guappa ◴[] No.43532861{8}[source]
Yes. There might be. That's the problem.
replies(1): >>43533921 #
42. guappa ◴[] No.43532866{5}[source]
I guess my comment above is downvoted because stating easily verifiable factual truths is not welcome?
43. computerfriend ◴[] No.43533163{4}[source]
The people wanted the opium.
44. atmosx ◴[] No.43533304{3}[source]
> I find it refreshing, however, that the "we are the evil empire now" idea is getting out of the closet. Call a spade a spade.

“Good” and “evil” are moral constructs that haven’t played a meaningful role in documented geopolitics since at least the 4th century BC.

There’s a well-known quote often attributed to Hastings Ismay that captures NATO’s original purpose. I won’t paste it here as it might come off as a bit harsh, and I’m not trying to drag this discussion out further.

> That's a fantasy, unless you think Germany is occupied by the USA. But that's not the case.

Circling back to Germany—I honestly can't think of a more humiliating moment for any NATO member than this[^1]. Sure, Mr. Biden was more aesthetically pleasing than Mr. Trump but take a moment to consider the symbolism and the signals sent to ally nations. Regardless of media narratives, the events of September 26, 2022, marked a turning point that fundamentally altered Germany’s economic path and future. It was a hostile act on a massive scale, and its consequences are undeniably real for the country.

[^1]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OS4O8rGRLf8

replies(3): >>43534375 #>>43542647 #>>43546488 #
45. Kim_Bruning ◴[] No.43533921{9}[source]
If true (The sourcing is a tad dubious?), it doesn't need to be a literal kill switch. Withholding software updates can be problematic enough.

https://bulgarianmilitary.com/2025/03/09/russian-media-claim...

46. amenhotep ◴[] No.43534375{4}[source]
Evidently you don't know much about humiliating moments for NATO members.
replies(1): >>43584187 #
47. mcv ◴[] No.43534902{4}[source]
If the US withholds parts or services to European countries, that would certainly be an interesting twist, considering the Dutch government used this arrangement as a reason why they couldn't withhold parts to Israel despite the ongoing genocide. Had Netherland decided otherwise, the US might use that as a precendent. Or maybe they'll just set the precedent regardless.
48. dfadsadsf ◴[] No.43535236{5}[source]
Even serious discussion of Chinese soldiers in Canada or Mexico is clear casus belli and surefire way for those countries to be occupied. Chinese soldiers on the border is existential to US and when dealing with existential risks countries tend to put funny concepts such as UN charter or human rights aside.

Canada is absolutely indefensible with no strategic depth or ability to get new supplies. Mexico is harder to occupy but their military is a joke and again easy to block all external supplies. Very doable.

replies(3): >>43536204 #>>43537111 #>>43537991 #
49. chgs ◴[] No.43536204{6}[source]
Perhaps the us should consider this before it talks about invading nato counties.
50. ben_w ◴[] No.43537111{6}[source]
> Even serious discussion of Chinese soldiers in Canada or Mexico is clear casus belli and surefire way for those countries to be occupied. Chinese soldiers on the border is existential to US and when dealing with existential risks countries tend to put funny concepts such as UN charter or human rights aside.

Talk of the Chinese being invited in by Canada or Mexico is precisely as much of a casus belli as Ukraine saying "please let us join NATO so Russia won't invade us!". Canada already has reason to fear invasion regardless, as Trump keeps talking about annexing them.

It didn't work out well for Russia, which is currently experiencing in Ukraine much what the US itself experienced in Vietnam. Or indeed in Cuba (Bay of Pigs) the year before the nuclear missiles which were much closer to a real casus belli.

51. JumpCrisscross ◴[] No.43537991{6}[source]
> Even serious discussion of Chinese soldiers in Canada or Mexico is clear casus belli and surefire way for those countries to be occupied

Which is why military alliance discussions aren’t conducted in public. The series of announcements would be e.g. Xi visiting Ottawa for trade talks and then announcing that Canada is under its nuclear umbrella.

> Canada is absolutely indefensible with no strategic depth or ability to get new supplies. Mexico is harder to occupy but their military is a joke and again easy to block all external supplies

Which is why they’ve sought external security guarantees. Now that America is threatening invasion, its security guarantees are diluted. So you need someone else; the only option is China (unless the EU beefs up).

replies(1): >>43545163 #
52. rat87 ◴[] No.43542647{4}[source]
I think what altered Germany and the EU path was the full scale Russian invasion of Ukraine. It humiliated German politicians and their decades long policy of trying to appease and cooperate with Russia. Biden and Obama were right to warn them about over reliance on Russia
53. rat87 ◴[] No.43542658[source]
Those massively military bases exist to protect Europe. The countries can of course choose to tell soldiers to fuck off but now is not a particularly good time for that. The real danger is that Trump abandons our allies because a dictator flattered him
54. mcv ◴[] No.43545163{7}[source]
I don't really think China is an option either. Maybe for the west coast, but I really don't think they can do much for the eastern half of Canada. Though EU+China might do it.

Problem is, China might be happy to see the US invade Canada, because then they can finally take Taiwan. And that's the real danger of Trump's foolish aggression: by weakening American's alliances, he's giving China more space to assert itself and take what they want.

55. Propelloni ◴[] No.43546488{4}[source]
> “Good” and “evil” are moral constructs that haven’t played a meaningful role in documented geopolitics since at least the 4th century BC.

I'm showing my age here, sorry. It is a play on something Ronald Reagan said about another empire.

56. ◴[] No.43584187{5}[source]