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    1192 points gniting | 12 comments | | HN request time: 0s | source | bottom
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    turblety ◴[] No.43521702[source]
    I still, will never understand the need for native "Apps". To this day, I have never seen an "App" that couldn't simply have been a website/webapp. Most of them would likely be improved by being a webapp.

    The only benefits I can see of "Apps", are the developer get's access to private information they really don't need.

    Yeah, they get to be on the "App Store". But the "App Store" is a totally unnecessary concept introduced by Apple/Google so they could scrape a huge percentage in sales.

    Web browsers have good (not perfect) sandboxing, costs no fees to "submit" and are accessible to everyone on every phone.

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    1. setopt ◴[] No.43522076[source]
    > I still, will never understand the need for native "Apps". To this day, I have never seen an "App" that couldn't simply have been a website/webapp.

    In cases where a native app and web app are both available on iOS, there’s often a huge difference in battery usage and sluggishness. Also, as a sibling poster mentioned, I like having fully “offline” apps as well, for example for maps and notes.

    I’m not saying that I like how Apple and Google have done this in practice, but I don’t think going webapp-only is the future. For the same reason I won’t replace my real computer with a Chromebook for the foreseeable future.

    replies(3): >>43522160 #>>43522352 #>>43522354 #
    2. wodenokoto ◴[] No.43522160[source]
    When the iPhone came out, you had full offline access on PC to Gmail and google docs using Google Gears.

    Google Gears got deprecated because something something move to standard HTMl and browser features and now we don’t really have any offline web apps.

    The ability to have non sluggish, offline web apps has existed for decades now, but the interest from providers has been declining and the understanding that this is possible is also declining on the consumer side.

    3. wiseowise ◴[] No.43522352[source]
    > In cases where a native app and web app are both available on iOS, there’s often a huge difference in battery usage and sluggishness.

    Yeah, like single native instagram draining battery faster than combination of multiple websites that I visit in Safari.

    > For the same reason I won’t replace my real computer with a Chromebook for the foreseeable future.

    > real computer

    Where most of the modern applications are either web wrappers or Electron apps.

    replies(2): >>43523966 #>>43525216 #
    4. jampekka ◴[] No.43522354[source]
    PWAs can be fully offline. Are you sure you understand what you criticize?
    replies(1): >>43522667 #
    5. jtrn ◴[] No.43522667[source]
    Have you tried building PWAs for large user bases?

    Here are some of the frustrations I had with PWA's.

    There are massive differences between browsers and Android/iOS when it comes to storage, access to local files, and size limitations. Proper backup/sync of large files using IndexedDB, Cache API, or localStorage is not as straightforward as native storage.

    Service workers aren’t designed for complex or long-running computations, But they’re more like lightweight assistants, and you would have a HUGE pain trying to accommodate all the different browser/OS limitations if you need predictable background sync/backup. This seems maybe to be better going forward due to frameworks like Ionic/Capacitor or Workbox.js tho.

    PWAs are tethered to the web’s security model, which means they’re generally restricted to HTTP and HTTPS for communication. This limits direct access to protocols like SMTP (email) and FTP (file transfer). You’re stuck with web-friendly options like WebSockets or WebRTC, or you’ll need a server to act as a middleman. Building a torrent client would be really annoying due to the limited protocol access. The WebTorrent JavaScript framework, which can run in the browser, does not fully support traditional TCP/UDP torrent protocols directly but instead relies on WebRTC data channels. Therefore, your app will only connect to peers supporting WebRTC, which significantly reduces available torrents and peer counts. Also, there often is an added level of restriction to background processes on mobile.

    There are also limits to access of the devices APIs: - NFC (partial Web NFC support in Android Chrome) - Bluetooth (Web Bluetooth limited to Chrome Android, absent in iOS) - Native contacts, SMS inbox, telephony, or system-wide calendars. - Some system-level sensors (barometer, precise accelerometer data).

    Also: Web apps often perform slower on heavy graphics or computation than native apps due to lack of direct GPU access. I have not tested this myself, but I know this has gotten better.

    Onwards: - PWAs can't directly register as the default handler for specific file types or URL schemes across the OS. - PWAs cannot reliably run background tasks (like precise location tracking, audio playback, VoIP callbacks, or continuous data monitoring) when inactive. - WebAuthn supports biometrics, but native biometric APIs (like Face ID/Touch ID) offer deeper integration for specific app functionality. This is a HUGE need for our firm, as we rely on it for easy authentication for our app, and customers love it over other authentication methods. - PWAs can't easily embed widgets into the OS home screen or system-level UI components like control center integration.

    YES, PWAs are much more capable than some people think and could, in many instances, work just as well as a native app. (I use GeForce Now on iOS with not many problems.)

    And this is not even touching on how much easier it is to use Android/iOS SDKs to put together an application, and user expectations (which might be WRONG when they think PWAs are lesser or more insecure, but these attitudes are still reality).

    All that said, I prefer PWA over native myself due to publication freedom, but I get annoyed when you talk down to people, and you seem to be the one that doesn't understand that there are actual limitations.

    replies(1): >>43522836 #
    6. jampekka ◴[] No.43522836{3}[source]
    The post mentioned offline usage for maps and notes. Neither are significantly limited by service workers' capabilities. Platform differences are annoying indeed, especially due to the deliberate sabotage by Apple.

    Sure there are limitations to PWAs, but quite a vast majority of apps don't need the missing features.

    I find native Android and especially iOS SDKs vastly more difficult and cumbersome to develop for. Doubly so of course if you have to develop for both. Maybe if you're already used to the Android/iOS development mess it is easier short term than to learn something new.

    7. carlosjobim ◴[] No.43523966[source]
    > Where most of the modern applications are either web wrappers or Electron apps.

    Only if you're stuck on a depreciated platform like Linux. If you are on Mac, native applications – real applications – are much more powerful and usable than any web wrapper on Linux.

    I've noticed Linux users have taken a habit of proposing their broken way of using a computer through the browser for other platforms as well. But on other platforms we are already spoiled with quality software.

    replies(2): >>43524116 #>>43525127 #
    8. rlpb ◴[] No.43524116{3}[source]
    Native applications are way better on Linux, too. But only where they exist. There are plenty of "apps" where there developers have taken shortcuts by getting "Linux support" by using Electron. These app perform noticeably worse and are generally disliked by their users.
    9. mattl ◴[] No.43525127{3}[source]
    Good native Mac apps are on the decline too.
    replies(1): >>43525964 #
    10. alabastervlog ◴[] No.43525216[source]
    I’m still bitter about Apple backing off their stance against using web tech in apps. Most apps that are really bad, are really bad because they’re just wrapping websites.
    11. carlosjobim ◴[] No.43525964{4}[source]
    What are you missing?
    replies(1): >>43526613 #
    12. mattl ◴[] No.43526613{5}[source]
    I was lamenting the lack of native UI in Blender last night.

    I’ve been using Nova for the last few years. Increasingly native non-Xcode development tools seem to be few and far between. I have BBEdit and Nova, but a lot of people have switched to VS Code it seems.