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The Website Hacker News Is Afraid to Discuss

(daringfireball.net)
479 points jgruber | 9 comments | 27 Mar 25 00:18 UTC | HN request time: 0.019s | source | bottom
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graeme ◴[27 Mar 25 00:53 UTC] No.43489285[source]▶
It's certainly possible there's a backend flag on the site.

But from the comments I see on Reddit, I suspect there may be a simpler explanation: a lot of people for some reason really dislike John Gruber and view him as someone who slavishly praises Apple.

I'm a big John Gruber fan, and I don't think this is true in the slightest. I think he thinks carefully, forms his own opinions, and is very willing to intensely criticize Apple as evidenced by his recent article on the State of Cupertino.

But this means his pro and con opinions don't match typical opinions and this makes him polarizing. And hence some people will flag his articles reflexively or post reflexive dismissals. And Hacker News is heavily weighted to downrank polarizing articles.

I've seen this same pattern happen with other topics where an article doesn't match the zeitgeist, even it the article itself is not flamebait. I think the Something Rotten in the State of Cupertino should have been at the top of Hacker News.

But overall the algorithm has kept HN an interesting place. Any good moderation policy has side effects and tradeoffs.

Dang would be the one to know, but it looks to me there's an innocuous explanation here. As for transparency, it's always frustrating to have it. But transparency in algo's invites gaming of those same algo's (and I don't mean by John). So I wouldn't expect the HN modteam to publish details about their algo.

Edit: since I posted this, the article was flagged. Which I think may support the thesis. I will say the mod team might consider a vouch feature for articles the way one exists for users/comments. I think it ought to take a lot of vouching to counteract flags, but there are clearly articles where this is warranted. The OPSec breach this week was one of them (and it was restored).

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rezmason[dead post] ◴[27 Mar 25 02:57 UTC] No.43489970[source]▶
[flagged]
graeme ◴[27 Mar 25 03:55 UTC] No.43490262[source]▶
I doubt you intended it, but your comment actually exemplifies why a lot of his articles likely get flagged and downranked. The comment is contentious, and also asserts that it is per se impossible for someone to disagree with the EU's stance on interoperability in good faith or that there may be legit downsides.

Then you deliver an extended personal attack for some reason. And one that really doesn't seem supported on the merits. Gruber co-created markdown and published a reasonably well received app, Vesper.

I think you're in good faith, and I mean my comment in that spirit. I point out the features of yours to show why the articles may get flagged if they generate comments that go against the spirit of the site.

I think there's a strong case your comment goes against comment guidelines 1, 2, 4, 5, 6 and 7

I glanced at the rest of your comments. None of them are remotely close to this! You're a polite and interesting commentator.

My thesis is that for whatever reason John Gruber manages to draw this style of comment out of people, and that this has increased over time as anti Apple sentiment has grown.

That's not John Gruber's fault and that isn't your fault, it's just the dynamic that emerges.

Comment Guidelines: https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

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1. rezmason ◴[27 Mar 25 04:33 UTC] No.43490420[source]▶
Thanks for bringing my attention to the comment guidelines, I'll try to keep to them in the future. I assure you, I do write here in good faith.

I'm open to listening to those who oppose the EU's position on Apple's ecosystem. I draw the line at people comparing Apple's circumstances with those portrayed in Harrison Bergeron. Apple, its developer community and its app ecosystem are unlike anyone in that story, and they certainly aren't oppressed rebels. That comparison was an editorial choice made by John Gruber in his coverage of tech news, including a link to a copy of the story he personally typeset. It rang loudly then of sentimental bias, and it's still ringing.

I don't have evidence of the makeup of the Daring Fireball readership, but many of them are at least adjacent to the tech industry, and so his words have incredible reach, Hacker News notwithstanding. But what are his credentials? When he weighs the merits of a programming language, an API, a platform, or anything technical, I want him to speak from experience. Collaborating with Aaron Swartz twenty-one years ago on Markdown is respectfully not very relevant technical experience in the domains DF traditionally covers. Vesper was one ObjC app written by three people in 2013. I'm glad it was well-received, but again, what significance does Gruber's experience have? Why should the industry listen to him when he (admittedly not so often nowadays) discusses software development? If asked, I think he'd strongly agree that people in power should have considerable relevant experience.

PS— the article that began this discussion is, "The Website Hacker News Is Afraid to Discuss". As you can see, I've been eager, not afraid, to discuss the merits of Daring Fireball, though not so eager as to upvote it on HN.

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2. graeme ◴[27 Mar 25 05:28 UTC] No.43490617[source]▶
Thanks in turn for the thoughtful reply. I still hold to my own view, but you've dramatically raised the quality of argument I'd have to make to give a satisfying reply. Which is what I think Hacker News should aspire to.

My interest was largely to point out what I saw as the meta trend around discussion of Daring Fireball posts, so I'll leave the debate there or we could be here all night. But I wish you well

3. doe88 ◴[27 Mar 25 11:45 UTC] No.43492591[source]▶
On a small point, from what I understand, I think full credits must be given to JG on MD it seems to be his own idea and implementation, my recollection of what I heard him discuss about it on his podcast in the past, was that Aaron Swartz helped him with some ideas and notes.
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4. jgruber ◴[27 Mar 25 13:38 UTC] No.43493525[source]▶
Correct.
5. graeme ◴[27 Mar 25 15:30 UTC] No.43494685[source]▶
Thanks for the correction! I'd edit my original comment if I could; it certainly makes the point stronger.

If creating Markdown doesn't make you a technologist, what does?

6. kemayo ◴[27 Mar 25 16:13 UTC] No.43495110[source]▶
> But what are his credentials? When he weighs the merits of a programming language, an API, a platform, or anything technical, I want him to speak from experience.

Sure, but he doesn't actually do that very much, does he? Like, that is absolutely not the focus of the blog. He talks a lot about the business of Apple, Apple's products and their direction, and how Apple interacts with various communities.

I don't think someone needs to have an engineering degree to have a valid opinion about the things the EU is telling Apple to do.

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7. rezmason ◴[27 Mar 25 16:25 UTC] No.43495237[source]▶
Apple's business relies tremendously on its developer relations. If Gruber doesn't regularly navigate that wedge of the ecosystem, then I don't think he can speak with authority on its soundness. I mean I wouldn't!
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8. kemayo ◴[27 Mar 25 16:30 UTC] No.43495283{3}[source]▶
I'd say that knowing and interacting with a lot of active developers probably counts. As far as I can tell, he has those connections.
9. kemayo ◴[28 Mar 25 01:49 UTC] No.43500533{3}[source]▶
Actually, fun counterpoint. This is the current top of the front page: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43498984

It's about Apple. It's an opinion piece, where someone's saying that Apple should do a retrenchment OS release where they just fix bugs. It appears to be written by someone who is some combination of a pastor and a professional opinion-haver ("editor in chief").

I don't think there's any metric by which this person's article should be sitting unflagged at the top of the front page, but Gruber's recent something-rotten-in-Cupertino article should get promptly flagged and hidden away.