←back to thread

1009 points n1b0m | 1 comments | | HN request time: 0.207s | source
Show context
greggyb ◴[] No.43411777[source]
Why is this flagged?

First of all, it's about an entrepreneur traveling to the US for a startup, which is directly relevant to a significant proportion of YCombinator founders themselves.

Beyond its direct relevance to the core founding audience of HN, it is not clickbait or wantonly inflammatory, and is clearly of interest to many based on the comment activity and votes.

replies(8): >>43412080 #>>43413298 #>>43413435 #>>43413509 #>>43414278 #>>43415596 #>>43418017 #>>43420402 #
kragen ◴[] No.43413435[source]
Possibly because the comment section will inevitably collapse into a partisan flamewar.
replies(2): >>43413474 #>>43414268 #
metabagel ◴[] No.43413474[source]
Shouldn't be a partisan issue.
replies(4): >>43413819 #>>43413891 #>>43413982 #>>43414859 #
kragen ◴[] No.43413819[source]
While I agree with you, it is observably true that many people take different positions on the issue and then demonize those who disagree with them, converting it into a partisan issue.

Another commenter (now deleted) made the claim that, saying an issue shouldn't be partisan is “just saying ‘everyone should believe what I do’ but in the lexicon of people who look down their nose at the general public.” They added, “The only nonpartisan issues are the most basic of things that all societies have like ‘don't murder people’ (but even then the minutia become debatable).” Although the comment has been deleted, I think this merits a little further exploration, because it's a widely held viewpoint, and there is some truth to it, though I disagree more than I agree.

There are definitely people who mean, "Shouldn't be a partisan issue," that way, but what I mean when I say it is that from the clash of opposing opinions comes the spark of insight, and partisan struggles in which arguments are soldiers do not permit that process to happen: https://slatestarcodex.com/2014/02/23/in-favor-of-niceness-c...

I have frequently observed variants of the following exchange in mathematics classrooms:

Professor [writing on blackboard]: So you see that this just reduces down to x² + a.

Student sitting in the third row of the audience: No, it's x³ + a.

Professor: Hmm. [pauses]

Student: Because the x from substituting f doesn't cancel.

Professor: Yes, you're right. So you see that this just reduces down to x³ + a.

Sometimes it goes the other way, and the student is the mistaken one. Neither participant goes into the discussion on the premise that "everyone should believe what they do"; rather, they believe that by discussing the issue they can arrive at an agreement, which may involve changing their own mind. Converting the discussion into partisan struggle prevents that from happening. Imagine what would have happened in my example if the discussion had instead gone as follows:

Professor: So you see that this just reduces down to x² + a.

Student: No, it's x³ + a.

Professor: I don't remember paying tuition to come and see you lecture.

Or, alternatively:

Professor: So you see that this just reduces down to x² + a.

Student: You didn't even do a modicum of research. It's x³ + a.

Or, how about this?

Professor: So you see that this just reduces down to x² + a.

Student: No, it's x³ + a.

Professor: You're being manipulated into thinking that this factor is being canceled incorrectly by the horrible evil professor.

Or, how about this?

Professor: So you see that this just reduces down to x² + a.

Student: "x²" ? Êtes-vous fou ? Restez avec x³ !

This difference comes out in its purest form in mathematics, but it's also possible for discussion and consultation to reach agreement on empirical and even moral issues. But partisanship is an obstacle in that process.

replies(4): >>43413864 #>>43413913 #>>43414689 #>>43415496 #
morkalork ◴[] No.43413864[source]
And here in lies the problem: wedge issues. Taking something, blowing it out of proportion and turning into a partisan issue on purpose. Abortion, LGBTQ rights, immigration. It becomes impossible to have nuanced, rational discussion about those topics, and its on purpose. One side thrives off of making them emotional, hot-button issues. Shunning discussion of it here or elsewhere because it's an emotional, hot-button topic, is just conceding to the side making it like that.
replies(2): >>43413995 #>>43414447 #
robertlagrant[dead post] ◴[] No.43413995[source]
[flagged]
consteval[dead post] ◴[] No.43414593[source]
[flagged]
robertlagrant ◴[] No.43421500[source]
> The question we all need to ask is - how many people are personally victimized by transgender Americans? Gay Americans? Green card holders? Once you start asking those questions, the current conservative zeitgeist becomes untenable, and the platform quickly crumbles.

I agree that that statement is technically correct, but I have observed various forms of it in American media, and here's my issue with it: the Conservative platform seems to not have run on it at all.

Broadly, I don't see the point in straw manning (conflating all immigration with illegal immigration, for example) in a good faith discussion. I've seen it a huge amount in left wing media, but I think honestly have to dismiss that discussion as bad faith and try and desperately search for the remainder.

Specifically, they haven't run on "gay Americans" that I've seen at all (I'm not sure what that would look like, even), and they haven't run on green card holders. They have run on trans ideation and surgery for children, and trans women in female spaces, and illegal immigration, it's true, but that is far more specific, and it's those precise issues that got them elected.

replies(1): >>43448135 #
1. consteval ◴[] No.43448135[source]
This is simply not true. If you turn on Fox News or even listen to the current administration talk, they are talking about transgender people.

Hell, Ted Cruz ran an ad depicting transgender children as big burly men who want to hurt YOUR daughters on the soccer field. He's a senator. He's got bigger fish to fry than that.

Even if you truly believe conservatives aren't making a boogeyman out of nothing, which is very hard to believe, but even if you do - if you look at the legislation being proposed it doesn't target the narrow cases you think it does. It harms all trans people. A lot of it targets gender-affirming care for adults.

And then immigration. How many people have illegally been detained now? Are we in the few hundreds? Where's their due process? I won't mince words. If you think the Trump administration is only targeting "illegal" immigrants, you are stupid.

Not that we didn't see any of this coming. For months leading up to this administration, the left warned about Project 2025 and it's radical ideals. We reminded you that this has nothing to do with children. With illegal immigrants. This has to do with every American. But you, evidently, continue to fall for obvious lies. After a certain point, we must deduce that you have subscribed to some religion, and it is out of our hands.