←back to thread

Understanding Solar Energy

(www.construction-physics.com)
261 points chmaynard | 3 comments | | HN request time: 0.961s | source
Show context
bryanlarsen ◴[] No.43423941[source]
Great article. Unfortunately his California duck curve graph only shows 2023. A graph including 2024 shows how batteries are dramatically flattening the duck curve:

https://cdn-ilcjnih.nitrocdn.com/BVTDJPZTUnfCKRkDQJDEvQcUwtA...

https://reneweconomy.com.au/battery-storage-is-dramatically-...

replies(3): >>43424435 #>>43425755 #>>43426846 #
epistasis ◴[] No.43424435[source]
And similarly the battery prices are very outdated. I don't blame the author for using those estimates, I frequently do too just because getting access to current data usually requires paying money.

But making decisions on that data without understanding that current prices and near-term prices will be about half of that price will lead to bad decisions. And when thinking 5-10 years out, not taking the full exponential drop in battery and solar prices is beyond foolish.

replies(2): >>43425520 #>>43433066 #
pyrale ◴[] No.43433066[source]
> And when thinking 5-10 years out, not taking the full exponential drop in battery and solar prices is beyond foolish.

The curve on solar is gradually getting flatter, though. Lazard's last LCOE report even saw it increase, partly because of inflation.

replies(1): >>43434136 #
kragen ◴[] No.43434136[source]
PV panels have dropped in cost in nominal euros by 21% over the last year, which is roughly the long-term trend since solar became profitable without subsidies around 02014: https://www.solarserver.de/photovoltaik-preis-pv-modul-preis...

Possibly you are only looking at prices inside the US, where anti-renewable-energy regulations drive the cost of solar energy through the roof.

replies(2): >>43434917 #>>43436151 #
hnaccount_rng ◴[] No.43434917[source]
Which does not really matter anymore though. In almost all installations the panels are already negligible for the total cost. This is especially true for rooftops and small installations
replies(1): >>43435036 #
1. kragen ◴[] No.43435036[source]
People often point to how electric motors revolutionized industrial productivity, but not until about 30 years after their introduction. Because that's when factories were redesigned around the flow of products instead of the flow of line shaft power, using small electric motors at every workstation instead of just powering the line shaft with a big one. You might have pointed out at the time that electric motors had a negligible cost compared to the factories they were installed in, but from that you should have concluded that huge changes were in the works, not that further reductions in motor costs were unimportant.

Today the module cost is far from negligible (the article shows SEIA data showing that, even in the US, modules are a third of the cost of recent utility-scale solar) and it's only small because the other parts of the installation are badly lagging behind. If you need to heat or cool your house or train your neural networks, you really just need the energy those panels can provide, and somewhere to store it. Other balance-of-system costs like microinverters, racking, most wiring, transmission, design, civil engineering, land, installation labor, and regulatory approval are only useful as means to that end; they are not strictly necessary to receive the benefit.

If avoiding those forms of waste means you can get energy for a negligible cost, more and more people will find ways to do it.

How can you avoid them?

Well, you can avoid the cost of inverters by using low-voltage dc power, as off-grid enthusiasts, RV retirees, and Google data centers have been doing for decades. You can avoid racking by laying the panels on the ground, as the article mentions, or hanging them on an exterior wall of a house or an existing fence. These also avoid civil engineering and land and labor costs, and also falling off your roof. You can't avoid wiring but you can reduce its cost by using higher voltages (even low-voltage dc can use 48 volts instead of 12) and mounting the panels close to the point of use. You avoid transmission (and distribution) costs by siting the panels onsite instead of in a faraway solar farm. You avoid design costs by buying an off-the-shelf modular power system instead of paying someone to design a custom one. You avoid regulatory approval most obviously by breaking the law, probably more feasible in a slum apartment or an RV than in a utility-scale power plant, or by avoiding doing regulated things like connecting to the electrical grid or running 120VAC or 240VAC wiring.

This clearly points to a near future of ridiculously abundant energy, at what we would have previously considered a negligible cost.

replies(1): >>43436623 #
2. gpm ◴[] No.43436623[source]
> hanging them on an exterior wall of a house or an existing fence

You can avoid racking by installing them as the fence when you install a new fence.

I mean you don't literally, but the installation cost is a cost you were going to pay anyways.

replies(1): >>43436822 #
3. kragen ◴[] No.43436822[source]
Maybe so. It might depend on the winds in your area.