←back to thread

1009 points n1b0m | 3 comments | | HN request time: 0s | source
Show context
greggyb ◴[] No.43411777[source]
Why is this flagged?

First of all, it's about an entrepreneur traveling to the US for a startup, which is directly relevant to a significant proportion of YCombinator founders themselves.

Beyond its direct relevance to the core founding audience of HN, it is not clickbait or wantonly inflammatory, and is clearly of interest to many based on the comment activity and votes.

replies(8): >>43412080 #>>43413298 #>>43413435 #>>43413509 #>>43414278 #>>43415596 #>>43418017 #>>43420402 #
kragen ◴[] No.43413435[source]
Possibly because the comment section will inevitably collapse into a partisan flamewar.
replies(2): >>43413474 #>>43414268 #
metabagel ◴[] No.43413474[source]
Shouldn't be a partisan issue.
replies(4): >>43413819 #>>43413891 #>>43413982 #>>43414859 #
kragen ◴[] No.43413819[source]
While I agree with you, it is observably true that many people take different positions on the issue and then demonize those who disagree with them, converting it into a partisan issue.

Another commenter (now deleted) made the claim that, saying an issue shouldn't be partisan is “just saying ‘everyone should believe what I do’ but in the lexicon of people who look down their nose at the general public.” They added, “The only nonpartisan issues are the most basic of things that all societies have like ‘don't murder people’ (but even then the minutia become debatable).” Although the comment has been deleted, I think this merits a little further exploration, because it's a widely held viewpoint, and there is some truth to it, though I disagree more than I agree.

There are definitely people who mean, "Shouldn't be a partisan issue," that way, but what I mean when I say it is that from the clash of opposing opinions comes the spark of insight, and partisan struggles in which arguments are soldiers do not permit that process to happen: https://slatestarcodex.com/2014/02/23/in-favor-of-niceness-c...

I have frequently observed variants of the following exchange in mathematics classrooms:

Professor [writing on blackboard]: So you see that this just reduces down to x² + a.

Student sitting in the third row of the audience: No, it's x³ + a.

Professor: Hmm. [pauses]

Student: Because the x from substituting f doesn't cancel.

Professor: Yes, you're right. So you see that this just reduces down to x³ + a.

Sometimes it goes the other way, and the student is the mistaken one. Neither participant goes into the discussion on the premise that "everyone should believe what they do"; rather, they believe that by discussing the issue they can arrive at an agreement, which may involve changing their own mind. Converting the discussion into partisan struggle prevents that from happening. Imagine what would have happened in my example if the discussion had instead gone as follows:

Professor: So you see that this just reduces down to x² + a.

Student: No, it's x³ + a.

Professor: I don't remember paying tuition to come and see you lecture.

Or, alternatively:

Professor: So you see that this just reduces down to x² + a.

Student: You didn't even do a modicum of research. It's x³ + a.

Or, how about this?

Professor: So you see that this just reduces down to x² + a.

Student: No, it's x³ + a.

Professor: You're being manipulated into thinking that this factor is being canceled incorrectly by the horrible evil professor.

Or, how about this?

Professor: So you see that this just reduces down to x² + a.

Student: "x²" ? Êtes-vous fou ? Restez avec x³ !

This difference comes out in its purest form in mathematics, but it's also possible for discussion and consultation to reach agreement on empirical and even moral issues. But partisanship is an obstacle in that process.

replies(4): >>43413864 #>>43413913 #>>43414689 #>>43415496 #
Tainnor ◴[] No.43415496[source]
> While I agree with you, it is observably true that many people take different positions on the issue and then demonize those who disagree with them, converting it into a partisan issue.

Sure, but you have to draw a line somewhere. Even on HN, there are opinions that you can't express (repeatedly) without being banned, even though there are clearly people with such opinions. Otherwise it's the Nazi bar problem - everyone who's not a Nazi will eventually leave.

Where exactly to draw the line is left as an exercise to the reader, but I suspect that some people just don't like where the line is currently being drawn.

replies(1): >>43417930 #
kragen ◴[] No.43417930[source]
I am not sure what opinion you thought I was trying to express. Evidently some sort of anti-censorship argument? To the contrary, my comment was explaining that the issue of US immigration has become highly polarized, and discussing highly polarized issues on HN is generally destructive, so probably we shouldn't attempt to discuss the issue here. This is closer to being a pro-censorship argument than an anti-censorship argument. (Later I added an illustration of how well a discussion can go without polarization, and how radically that differs from the current comment thread, but you may not have seen that.)

Your comment begins by signaling partial disagreement ("Sure, but") but then makes no argument tending to show that the issue is not highly polarized or that HN is a good place to discuss highly polarized issues. Instead, it discusses other topics relating to social group dynamics, but not in a way that is relevant to the comment you were replying to.

replies(1): >>43421210 #
1. Tainnor ◴[] No.43421210[source]
You're advocating for avoiding polarised discussions because they degenerate quickly. I'm only pointing out that that's not the only option: you could allow these discussions while ruthlessly silencing bad faith actors (for whatever definition of "bad faith" you want to adopt). Those are both "pro-censorship" stances (although I prefer the word "moderation" to "censorship"), but they're going about it in different ways.

That's what I mean by the Nazi bar problem[0]: you can't solve it by just not allowing certain topics to be discussed, because eventually in some completely tangential situation, a nasty flamewar is going to erupt and people who are not Nazis will be appalled that there are Nazis here.

[0]: I'm explicitly not saying that certain opinions expressed on HN are literal Nazi opinions, the Nazi bar problem is just a convenient analogy for the situation when one group of people holds opinions that are utterly appalling to many other people that frequent the same space.

replies(1): >>43424192 #
2. kragen ◴[] No.43424192[source]
I see. Thank you for clarifying. I indeed had not understood you.

It sounds like you think the problem is the wrong sort of people. But almost everybody retreats into ego defense and partisan struggle under sufficiently threatening circumstances, even though some people are habitually more prone to that kind of thing than others. It's more about minimizing the frequency of the wrong sort of circumstances.

Additionally, though I think everyone is happy that I'm not the one running the site, I have observed elsewhere that your favored "ruthless silencing" approach has some side effects you may not be anticipating.

replies(1): >>43424633 #
3. Tainnor ◴[] No.43424633[source]
Just to be clear, I'm not advocating for anything specific because I understand that the problem is hard. But I feel like some people want to have their cake and eat it too. If you don't silence certain types of discourse, you alienate certain participants (and HN understands this to a degree - you can't use racial slurs here, for example). Maybe that's acceptable - but you just have to be honest about it.