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    385 points vessenes | 11 comments | | HN request time: 0.731s | source | bottom

    So, Lecun has been quite public saying that he believes LLMs will never fix hallucinations because, essentially, the token choice method at each step leads to runaway errors -- these can't be damped mathematically.

    In exchange, he offers the idea that we should have something that is an 'energy minimization' architecture; as I understand it, this would have a concept of the 'energy' of an entire response, and training would try and minimize that.

    Which is to say, I don't fully understand this. That said, I'm curious to hear what ML researchers think about Lecun's take, and if there's any engineering done around it. I can't find much after the release of ijepa from his group.

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    bravura ◴[] No.43368085[source]
    Okay I think I qualify. I'll bite.

    LeCun's argument is this:

    1) You can't learn an accurate world model just from text.

    2) Multimodal learning (vision, language, etc) and interaction with the environment is crucial for true learning.

    He and people like Hinton and Bengio have been saying for a while that there are tasks that mice can understand that an AI can't. And that even have mouse-level intelligence will be a breakthrough, but we cannot achieve that through language learning alone.

    A simple example from "How Large Are Lions? Inducing Distributions over Quantitative Attributes" (https://arxiv.org/abs/1906.01327) is this: Learning the size of objects using pure text analysis requires significant gymnastics, while vision demonstrates physical size more easily. To determine the size of a lion you'll need to read thousands of sentences about lions, or you could look at two or three pictures.

    LeCun isn't saying that LLMs aren't useful. He's just concerned with bigger problems, like AGI, which he believes cannot be solved purely through linguistic analysis.

    The energy minimization architecture is more about joint multimodal learning.

    (Energy minimization is a very old idea. LeCun has been on about it for a while and it's less controversial these days. Back when everyone tried to have a probabilistic interpretation of neural models, it was expensive to compute the normalization term / partition function. Energy minimization basically said: Set up a sensible loss and minimize it.)

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    jcims ◴[] No.43369778[source]
    Over the last few years I’ve become exceedingly aware at how insufficient language really is. It feels like a 2D plane and no matter how many projections you attempt to create from it, they are ultimately limited in the fidelity of the information transfer.

    Just a lay opinion here but to me each mode of input creates a new, largely orthogonal dimension for the network to grow into. The experience of your heel slipping on a cold sidewalk can be explained in a clinical fashion, but an android’s association of that to the powerful dynamic response required to even attempt to recover will give a newfound association and power to the word ‘slip’.

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    1. ninetyninenine ◴[] No.43369801[source]
    LLM is just the name. You can encode anything into the "language" including pictures video and sound.
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    2. pessimizer ◴[] No.43369884[source]
    I've always been wondering if anyone is working on using nerve impulses. My first thought when transformers came around was if they could be used for prosthetics, but I've been too lazy to do the research to find anybody working on anything like that, or to experiment myself with it.
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    3. Tepix ◴[] No.43370195[source]
    When you train a neural net for Donkeycar with camera images plus the joystick commands of the driver, isn't that close to nerve impulses already?
    4. inetknght ◴[] No.43372294[source]
    > I've always been wondering if anyone is working on using nerve impulses. My first thought when transformers came around was if they could be used for prosthetics

    Neuralink. Musk warning though.

    For reference, see Neuralink Launch Event at 59:33 [0], and continue watching through until Musk takes over again. The technical information there is highly relevant to a multi-modal AI model with sensory input/output.

    https://youtu.be/r-vbh3t7WVI?t=3575

    5. rkp8000 ◴[] No.43373945[source]
    There are a few folks working on this in neuroscience, e.g. training transformers to "decode" neural activity (https://arxiv.org/abs/2310.16046). It's still pretty new and a bit unclear what the most promising path forward is, but will be interesting to see where things go. One challenge that gets brought up a lot is that neuroscience data is often high-dimensional and with limited samples (since it's traditionally been quite expensive to record neurons for extended periods), which is a fairly different regime from the very large data sets typically used to train LLMs, etc.
    6. kryogen1c ◴[] No.43374022[source]
    > You can encode anything into the "language

    Im just a layman here, but i don't think this is true. Language is an abstraction, an interpreative mechanism of reality. A reproduction of reality, like a picture, by definition holds more information than it's abstraction does.

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    7. jcims ◴[] No.43374402[source]
    There are ‘spiking neural networks’ that operate in a manner that more closely emulates how neurons communicate. One idea I think that is interesting to think about is that we build a neural network that operates in a way that is effectively ‘native’ to our mind, so it’s less like there’s a hidden keyboard and screen in your brain, but that it simply becomes new space you can explore in your mind.

    Or learn king fu.

    8. sturza ◴[] No.43374970[source]
    A picture is also an abstraction. If you take a picture of a tree, you have more details than the word "tree". What i think the parent is saying, is that all the information in a picture of a tree can be encoded in language, for example a description of a tree, using words. Both are abstractions but if you describe the tree well enough with text(and comprehend the description) it might have the same "value" as a picture(not for a human, but for a machine). Also, the size of the text describing the tree might be smaller than the picture.
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    9. kryogen1c ◴[] No.43375873{3}[source]
    > all the information in a picture of a tree can be encoded in language

    What words would you write that would as uniquely identify this tree from any other tree in the world, like a picture would?

    Now repeat for everything in the picture, like the time of day, weather, dirt on the ground, etc.

    10. og_kalu ◴[] No.43379020[source]
    I think his point is that LLMs are pre-trained transformers. And pre-trained transformers are general sequence predictors. Those sequences started out as text or language only but by no means is the architecture constrained to text or language alone. You can train a transformer that embeds and predicts sound and images as well as text.
    11. thebigspacefuck ◴[] No.43383623[source]
    Like Cortical labs? Neurons integrated on a silicon chip https://corticallabs.com/cl1.html