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169 points flaxxen | 1 comments | | HN request time: 0.324s | source
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Aurornis ◴[] No.43209537[source]
Important to note that the serotonin theory of depression doesn't have to be strictly true for SSRIs to be effective. People who having passing familiarity with neuroscience often assume that psychiatric medications work by correcting deficiencies, but this isn't true. It's also not accurate to say that SSRIs "give you more serotonin" or any of the other variations on that theme.

Neurotransmitters aren't simple levels in the brain that go up and down, despite how much podcasters and fitness influencers talk about them like that. Neurotransmitter dynamics are complex and the long-term adaptations after taking medications like an SSRI can't be simply described in terms of "levels" going up and down. There are changes in frequency, duration, and movement of Serotonin across synapses that are much more complex. There are also adaptations to the receptors, including auto-receptors which modulate release of neurotransmitters (side note: some newer antidepressants also directly target those autoreceptors with possibly slight improvements in side effect profile).

So keep that in mind when reading anything about the serotonin theory of depression. This is often brought up as a strawman argument to attack SSRIs, but we've known for decades that the serotonin theory of depression never fully explained the situation. We've also known that some conditions like anxiety disorders are associated with increased serotonin activity in parts of the brain, which SSRIs can normalize.

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aeturnum ◴[] No.43209670[source]
Exactly this - SSRI's efficacy was established based on improvements in reports from depressed people and we formed a theory about the mechanism based on the interactions we understood. As we try to prove that theory out it turns out our theories don't hold - but people who are depressed still improve when on SSRIs! So we're still working on the mechanism (which we always knew was incomplete at best) but this work isn't about the underlying efficacy of the drugs on the condition. It's about the nerdy explanation for why SSRIs work.
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arcticbull ◴[] No.43210180[source]
SSRIs aren’t shown to be much better than placebo and are shown to be about as effective as therapy — which is actually durable.

There’s also rates of sexual side effects in excess of 70% [1] and they cause weight gain which is separately associated with depression.

In fact industry data shows a smaller gap between SSRIs and placebo than FDA data. See Figure 1. [2]

The problem with SSRIs is that serotonin receptors are all over the body including in the gonads and they play a large role in appetite regulation.

They do something but it’s not nearly what people assume.

[1] https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC6007725/

[2] https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC4592645/

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Aurornis ◴[] No.43210801[source]
> SSRIs aren’t shown to be much better than placebo

"Not much better than placebo" is burying the lede.

The real problem is that placebo performs very well in depression studies. It's a well studied phenomenon.

Effective antidepressants are marginally better than placebo in the studies because the placebo group improves so much, not because the antidepressants don't do anything.

> and are shown to be about as effective as therapy — which is actually durable.

False dichotomy. The recommendation is for people on SSRIs to also do therapy.

You don't have to choose one or the other.

> There’s also rates of sexual side effects in excess of 70% [1]

If you read further in your [1] you'll see that the rate of side effects is not "in excess of 70%" but lower, and it depends on both the medication and the dose. Switching medications and changing doses is often sufficient to ameliorate some or all of these effects.

That paper also mentions newer alternatives such as Vilazodone (SSRI plus 5-HT1A action) which are shown to have lower incidence of these side effects.

> and they cause weight gain which is separately associated with depression.

SSRIs aren't really associated with weight gain once you exclude the older ones like Paroxetine which have anticholinergic effects. A lot of studies find statistically insignificant weight loss or slight gain.

Weight gain is really a negligible decision factor in modern SSRI treatment: https://www.ccjm.org/content/ccjom/70/7/314.full.pdf

There's a lot of misinformed fear mongering in your comment.

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treis ◴[] No.43210918[source]
>Effective antidepressants are marginally better than placebo in the studies because the placebo group improves so much, not because the antidepressants don't do anything.

Not outperforming a placebo means they don't actually do anything.

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1. Johanx64 ◴[] No.43223335[source]
> Not outperforming a placebo means they don't actually do anything.

SSRIs are potent pharmaceutical drugs that have multiple, very strong effects.

For example, Setraline (SSRI) is one of the most effective drugs to treat premature ejaculation. It used to be prescribed for exactly this purpose (and maybe still is). If anything, this is one of the most pronounced and easily measurable effects of SSRIs.

If I took 25mg of setraline per day (extremely small dose) for a week, it would become impossible to ejaculate.

It also has a whole multitude of other effects that are more dependent on individual (age, gender, bodyweight, etc), some other effects for males are -> crushing testosterone levels, weakness.

For me personally, it turns me extremely, extremely emotional, makes me able to sleep all the time, and mentally turns you into a zombie where your lifes dreams and aspirations just disappear.

Does it help with depression? I would say no. That however doesn't mean it doesn't do anyting, because they do all sorts of things. It is a very potent and poorly understood pharmaceutical.