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122 points phsilva | 2 comments | | HN request time: 0s | source
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thunkingdeep ◴[] No.43110710[source]
This does NOT mean Python will get Tail Call Optimization, as Guido cannot be shown The Light, and has decided.
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beagle3 ◴[] No.43111490[source]
It is not an optimization ; it changes program semantics - converts programs that will run out of stack eventually regardless of the amount of available memory (and raise exceptions an the process, for example, which a program might rely on. Either way, semantics are changed)

It should only be called Tail Call Elimination.

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dragonwriter ◴[] No.43111776[source]
By that standard, any optimization that changes scaling in any dimension changes semantics, which, well, I’m not saying its wrong, but I would say it is exactly what people looking for optimization want.
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dataflow ◴[] No.43111911[source]
> By that standard, any optimization that changes scaling in any dimension changes semantics

That doesn't follow. This isn't like going from driving a car to flying an airplane. It's like going from driving a car to just teleporting instantly. (Except it's about space rather than time.)

It's a difference in degree (optimization), yes, but by a factor of infinity (O(n) overhead to 0 overhead). At that point it's not unreasonable to consider it a difference in kind (semantics).

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tomsmeding ◴[] No.43111980[source]
Modern C compilers are able to transform something like this:

for (int i = 0; i < n; i++) a += i;

To:

a += n * (n+1) / 2;

Is this an optimisation or a change in program semantics? I've never heard anyone call it anything slse than an optimisation.

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1. dataflow ◴[] No.43112065[source]
This will get a bit pedantic, but it's probably worthwhile... so here we go.

> Is this an optimisation or a change in program semantics?

Note that I specifically said something can be both an optimization and a change in semantics. It's not either-or.

However, it all depends on how the program semantics are defined. They are defined by the language specifications. Which means that in your example, it's by definition not a semantic change, because it occurs under the as-if rule, which says that optimizations are allowed as long as they don't affect program semantics. In fact, I'm not sure it's even possible to write a program that would be guaranteed to distinguish them based purely on the language standard. Whereas with tail recursion it's trivial to write a program that will crash without tail recursion but run arbitrarily long with it.

We do have at least one optimization that is permitted despite being prohibited by the as-if rule: return-value optimization (RVO). People certainly consider that a change in semantics, as well as an optimization.

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2. tomsmeding ◴[] No.43113258[source]
You do have a point. However, if I'm allowed to move the goalposts a little: not all changes in semantics are equal. If you take a program that crashes for certain inputs and turn it into one that is semantically equivalent except that in some of those crashing cases, it actually continues running (as if on a machine with infinite time and/or memory), then that is not quite as bad as one that changes a non-crashing result into a different non-crashing result, or one that turns a non-crashing result into a crash.

With this kind of "benign" change, all programs that worked before still work, and some that didn't work before now work. I would argue this is a good thing.