←back to thread

1041 points mertbio | 2 comments | | HN request time: 0s | source
Show context
pc86 ◴[] No.42841512[source]
> The Myth of Job Security in Germany

> Since I was working for a German entity of a company, I want to address a common myth about job security in Germany. Many people believe that it’s nearly impossible to be fired in Germany. While this is partially true for individuals who have completed their probation period, it doesn’t hold up in the context of layoffs. If a company decides to lay off, for instance, 40 employees, German law doesn’t prevent this. Instead, the law enforces a social scoring system to determine who is affected, prioritizing the protection of the most vulnerable employees, such as those with children. In this sense, when it comes to layoffs, the difference between Germany and the US is minimal.

The author decries how he was laid off despite his contribution then - without a hint of irony - says Germany isn't as safe for employees as most people think because layoffs are legally required to take into account information completely disconnected from your contributions at work.

Of course if you have legal structures that make it harder to fire people based on what they do outside of work, you will be forced to lay off people you otherwise wouldn't.

What are the odds the author got laid off despite his contributions precisely because somebody who earned more than him and did less couldn't be fired because they happened to have children? In the US it would be approximately zero. Even if the person picking names knows you have kids - but they don't because they're usually 3-4 levels above you - they have to justify the names to their boss and "J. Doe just had their second kid so let's keep them around until next year" will absolutely not fly.

replies(3): >>42841709 #>>42842601 #>>42843079 #
bluGill ◴[] No.42841709[source]
The hard to lay off makes it harder to hire as well. Sure you get the 6 month probation period, but it is risky to hire anyone because they might make it past those 6 months before bad times come.

There is no good answer.

replies(1): >>42842137 #
pc86 ◴[] No.42842137[source]
You will have a hard time convincing me that at will employment and hire-fast-fire-fast mentality is not objectively better than whatever you might call the German-style system. (Notice I didn't say it's good, just better)

The German-style system seems to treat a job as something the employee is guaranteed, that it's their inherent right to have, rather than something the employer chooses to give them. It doesn't seem to line up with reality.

replies(3): >>42842689 #>>42843006 #>>42848085 #
sofixa ◴[] No.42842689[source]
Better for whom? I think most people sleep better knowing that they can't be let go for no reason, no notice and no severance tomorrow.

Yes, you can lay off people in Germany, and France, and Italy. But there are rules, notice periods, and mandatory severances, as well as often (country dependent) consultation periods. In what way is that worse for the employee?

replies(2): >>42843045 #>>42843716 #
pc86 ◴[] No.42843716{3}[source]
I'm not saying there should be no rules but saying "you can't lay off Employee A because he has kids, you have to lay off Employee B instead because they don't" with absolutely no consideration of work product is pretty asinine on its face.

Laying people off is a business decision - forcing a company to justify that from a business context is probably a Good Thing, but injecting weird social requirements on top of that is silly.

replies(1): >>42843966 #
1. Tade0 ◴[] No.42843966{4}[source]
It makes sense if you consider the social cost of having children live through their parents' layoff.

Meanwhile businesses enjoy the privilege of operating in a country where contracts are enforced and people are educated. In exchange they're expected to not treat their employees like cattle - that's not a lot to ask IMHO.

replies(1): >>42852140 #
2. bluGill ◴[] No.42852140[source]
What social cost? You should not be so invested in your job that getting layoffs would have any social costs. There might be economic costs, but there are many ways to handle that so they don't become social costs.