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1041 points mertbio | 47 comments | | HN request time: 0.001s | source | bottom
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keiferski ◴[] No.42839412[source]
The thing that bothers me most about layoffs due to “financial difficulties” is when you observe management wasting absurd amounts of money on something in one year, then announcing the following year that they have to make cuts to baseline, “low level” employees that don’t cost much at all.

This kind of managerial behavior seriously kills employee motivation, because it both communicates that 1) no one has job security and 2) that management is apparently incapable of managing money responsibly.

“Sorry, we spent $200k on consultants and conferences that accomplished nothing, so now we have to cut an employee making $40k” really erodes morale in ways that merely firing people doesn’t.

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mrweasel ◴[] No.42839758[source]
> Sorry, we spent $200k on consultants

A former employer decided to freeze pay for a few years and later later start laying off people. During the pay freeze a colleague suggested that we might save a significant amount of money by hiring staff, rather than paying the large number of consultants we had hired. I think the ration was something like getting rid of two consultants would free enough money to hire three developers.

Managements take was that we should keep the consultants, because they where much easier to fire, two weeks notice, compared to four. So it was "better" to have consultants. My colleague pointed out that the majority of our consultants had been with us for 5+ years at that point and any cancelling of their contracts was probably more than 4 weeks out anyway. The subject was then promptly changed.

In fairness to management large scale layoffs did start 18 months later.

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1. sheepscreek ◴[] No.42840567[source]
There’s the whole capital expenditure vs operating expenses angle too, and depending on a company’s particular situation, one might look better on paper than the other. Without going into too much detail, contractors will be hired typically to contribute to capital expenditure and employees to the latter.

This distinction is even more relevant for earnings. So companies will optimize this for taxation and accounting to win shareholder brownie points.

replies(5): >>42840629 #>>42840689 #>>42840775 #>>42840914 #>>42844353 #
2. xtiansimon ◴[] No.42840629[source]
Or as wind-up to a merger /acquisition.
3. Salgat ◴[] No.42840689[source]
Can you explain more how paying double for a contractor for tax reasons saves the company money? Or is this all some nonsense setup by the company to shuffle the numbers to look superficially better for a specific metric?
replies(4): >>42840796 #>>42840845 #>>42841094 #>>42841515 #
4. V__ ◴[] No.42840775[source]
I am wondering whether a company "optimizing for shareholder brownie points" is a good signal to either look for employment elsewhere or as an investor start investing elsewhere. It seems like a company who prioritizes this either has reached their potential (which might be fine) or is just not able to innovate anymore.
replies(2): >>42840807 #>>42842002 #
5. rincebrain ◴[] No.42840796[source]
To my understanding, it's the latter.

"We spent 1B in one-off costs for increased future growth" is a much happier story to investors than "we have recurring costs of 1B", put simply, even if the actual recurring cost number is worse.

(There's also some complexities in some industries around money from, say, grants, which you can only spend on certain types of expenditures...)

6. cj ◴[] No.42840807[source]
A simple question to ask an employer during an interview is whether the company is profitable or not. If so, for how long?
replies(4): >>42840954 #>>42841900 #>>42843863 #>>42845073 #
7. Olreich ◴[] No.42840845[source]
It’s all about accounting for the spend. Wall Street often looks at Capital Expenditures as a sign of growth or at least net neutral, but they view Operating Expenses as negative. If you can reduce your operating expenses by 200k, but increase your capital expenditure by 400k, you’ve reduced overall profit in order to increase growth potential because your investing 400k into new stuff that will bring in more revenue.

This strategy cannot work long term unless there is growth happening elsewhere in the company to make up for the excess money burned on contractors and reduced number of employees. But it can definitely work short term if the growth numbers for the quarter are going to look bad, and it has the benefit of giving management someone else to blame when the project work doesn’t get done.

If your company starts replacing employees with contractors, that’s a bad sign.

replies(1): >>42840903 #
8. mrweasel ◴[] No.42840903{3}[source]
That might be it, this company was obsessed with CAPEX vs. OPEX. Everything was always put into the context of CAPEX or OPEX. OPEX being bad and CAPEX good.
replies(1): >>42841261 #
9. marcosdumay ◴[] No.42840914[source]
> contractors will be hired typically to contribute to capital expenditure

You know, operational expenses are the ones that get an immediate tax break, and capital expenditure the ones with a depreciation period.

Changing the expenses that way can only increase the company's tax payments. The only reason one could possibly want to make that change is if they want to fraudulently show the money paid for the contractors as earnings.

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10. scarface_74 ◴[] No.42840954{3}[source]
Most VC backed private companies aren’t profitable. If it is a public company the information is readily available
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11. ◴[] No.42841010{4}[source]
12. lesuorac ◴[] No.42841093{4}[source]
There's still a question of what you consider profitable.

A company may make more in revenue than strictly expenses but stock-based compensation is often not considered an expense so if you add those into the expense side it could change profitability.

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13. gosub100 ◴[] No.42841094[source]
- an employee is an "expense" that bogs down your money-machine.

- a contractor provides a "service" that improves your money-machine output.

(or so it's said).

replies(1): >>42842857 #
14. scarface_74 ◴[] No.42841157{5}[source]
But honestly, profitability doesn’t matter. All of the major tech companies were profitable and still had tens of thousands of layoffs between them.
replies(1): >>42841482 #
15. OJFord ◴[] No.42841239{4}[source]
Sure, and then there's all the private companies backed by non-venture capital, and the profitable ones running on revenue.
replies(2): >>42841298 #>>42842838 #
16. TeMPOraL ◴[] No.42841261{4}[source]
Wait, when did that change? I thought the prevailing wisdom in our industry is that CAPEX sucks, OPEX rules. I understdood that's what's driving SaaSification of everything - replacing some internal tool and labor with a SaaS is literally turning CAPEX into OPEX, and it was supposedly what the investors liked.
replies(1): >>42841560 #
17. scarface_74 ◴[] No.42841298{5}[source]
You don’t find too many profitable “lifestyle companies” in tech.
replies(3): >>42841448 #>>42842191 #>>42860567 #
18. thesuitonym ◴[] No.42841379[source]
Most of the people in charge of making these kinds of decisions are not that smart.
19. mattgreenrocks ◴[] No.42841448{6}[source]
You stated that there aren't many profitable lifestyle companies. And the insinuation put forth is that they are very rare to the point of almost nonexistent.

This comes off as rather reductionist and absolute to me; tech is a massive industry, do you know every sector within and adjacent to tech to have reached this conclusion?

replies(1): >>42841578 #
20. ibejoeb ◴[] No.42841470{5}[source]
Stock-based compensation is absolutely considered an expense under US GAAP.
replies(1): >>42842418 #
21. mlinhares ◴[] No.42841482{6}[source]
Layoffs in big tech are mostly to place workers in their place and shake the market, they've definitely been able to drive down salaries these past two years.
replies(1): >>42841516 #
22. pclmulqdq ◴[] No.42841484[source]
> to fraudulently show the money paid for the contractors as earnings

Bingo. That's the main reason to shift opex to capex.

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23. bryanrasmussen ◴[] No.42841515[source]
>Can you explain more how paying double for a contractor for tax reasons saves the company money?

This may vary due to region. For example in the U.S where you can fire people quickly the contractor benefit is less apparent, but in EU where after a short period you may have to spend a long time to fire someone it may be beneficial to hire a contractor rather than going through a lengthy hiring process only to find out you want to fire them.

Contractors in such an environment often are a reasonable investment for a project that has a particular dedicated timeline. Like we expect 1 year for project to finish. We hire for 1 year, and opportunity to extend for 3 months 2 times in case it goes bad.

Otherwise you have to hire for project and then do these layoffs everybody here is complaining about.

Furthermore in EU if you are paying 10000 for an employee, you probably have extra fees on top of that so you are paying 14000 (estimation) then for contractor you are not paying 28000, but 20000. The pricing is not great, but there are lots of factors that can make it seem more attractive than it might appear on its face.

Finally, Contractors tend not to do any of this quiet quitting or whatever, probably because for them it is more a business and they are also earning significantly more that makes it an interesting business to be in and to maintain.

replies(2): >>42842297 #>>42842789 #
24. grajaganDev ◴[] No.42841516{7}[source]
Yes - I think layoffs are also backlash against WFH.

Employees were getting a bit too uppity.

25. pclmulqdq ◴[] No.42841560{5}[source]
The only real difference is tax treatment. Opex is subtracted from earnings before public reporting and before taxes. So opex are more tax-efficient, but they lower your reported earnings.
26. scarface_74 ◴[] No.42841578{7}[source]
No. But I do know statistics. The largest employees in tech are the public companies that we have all heard of. The next largest segment are VC funded companies with the smallest segment by far being the “lifestyle companies”.

Do an exercise, go to any job board and put in filters to match the types of jobs you are qualified for. How many of those do you think are going to be profitable, private, lifestyle companies?

replies(1): >>42842388 #
27. nine_k ◴[] No.42841764[source]
This is exactly what has changed [1]: R&D costs had been an immediate tax break, but since 2022 became an expenditure requiring a 5-year amortization period.

That change had been planned to be canceled before coming into force, but it was not canceled on time.

Hence the wave of layoffs in 2022, as companies were urgently trying to improve their balance sheets, as investors and the Wall Street requested, AFAICT.

[1]: https://www.corumgroup.com/insights/major-tax-changes-us-sof...

28. codr7 ◴[] No.42841900{3}[source]
That would be a red flag to me.

Companies that make a shit ton of money generally don't like changes.

They're just looking for the next fool to squeeze.

29. iknowSFR ◴[] No.42842002[source]
Large US companies that I’ve worked with or for do this as a SOP. It’s not a calculation being done at the hiring manager level as much as a path of least resistance because that’s the way it’s been done for so long.
30. alistairSH ◴[] No.42842191{6}[source]
There are plenty of mid-size tech companies that are both not-public and not-lifestyle.

My employer is one of them. Several thousand employees, global reach, and owned by PE (Blackstone and Vista).

31. imtringued ◴[] No.42842297{3}[source]
You can give workers temporary contracts and extend them as you see fit. None of what you are saying makes any sense to me.

Also, I will repeat this as many times as possible: you can fire employees in Germany exactly the same way you can fire employees in the US. You just need to follow the damn law. You need to give your employee a WRITTEN letter of termination, to make the termination legally binding. Then all you have to do is give them notice (or pay the salary out immediately if you want to get rid of them immediately).

Paying double so you can fire contractors is illogical. The maximum amount of notice you can be legally entitled to is 7 months, after working 20 damn years at a single company, which means at worst the company would have to pay half your salary out a single time to get rid of you immediately. None of this 2x every year multi-year bullshit.

The reason why you hire contractors is that you do not need the full output of an employee. You might only need three months or maybe just a week. It's the same reason companies rent equipment instead of buying.

replies(2): >>42843046 #>>42843765 #
32. tomnipotent ◴[] No.42842388{8}[source]
I would put money on all of big tech and all public companies combined not employing more than 30% of professional programmers. At least in the US only 15% work at a large company (500+).
33. lesuorac ◴[] No.42842418{6}[source]
Which is why companies report non-GAAP numbers.

https://abc.xyz/assets/71/a5/78197a7540c987f13d247728a371/20...

> We provide non-GAAP free cash flow because it is a liquidity measure that provides useful information to management and investors about the amount of cash generated by the business that can be used for strategic opportunities, including investing in our business and acquisitions, and to strengthen our balance sheet.

34. ◴[] No.42842761{5}[source]
35. cultureswitch ◴[] No.42842789{3}[source]
In my experience long time contractors will absolutely "quiet quit" if put into the same catch-22 situations that push employees to do this.

The main difference at least in my region is that if you're a contractor then it's much quicker for you to quit and find a better job so the incentive to stay isn't as strong. In other words, tech workers who become contractors here usually are better contributors and have an easier time finding good offers.

36. carlosjobim ◴[] No.42842838{5}[source]
Those are the companies he meant by "public companies", ie publicly traded not government owned.
replies(1): >>42860540 #
37. esafak ◴[] No.42842857{3}[source]
Then simply fire all the employees and hire contractors!
38. bryanrasmussen ◴[] No.42843046{4}[source]
> The maximum amount of notice you can be legally entitled to is 7 months

I believe the maximum amount of notice you can be legally entitled to as a contractor is whatever your contract says

39. generic92034 ◴[] No.42843765{4}[source]
> you can fire employees in Germany exactly the same way you can fire employees in the US. You just need to follow the damn law.

That is overly simplified. First, you have to commit to one of three types of layoffs, only one of which usually is applicable (betriebsbedingte Kündigung). But if you do that you have to consider the social circumstances of the employee and also other comparable employees. Which absolutely can result in not being able to fire the employee you would like to fire without also firing a number of other employees first. That could be really disruptive, so it is not quite so easy for German employers.

40. johnvanommen ◴[] No.42843863{3}[source]
> A simple question to ask an employer during an interview is whether the company is profitable or not. If so, for how long?

This is great advice.

For instance, I was once in an interview where they were grilling me. I was reluctant to do the interview in the first place, because they'd gone bankrupt TWICE in the past five years.

At the end of the interview, it seemed fairly clear that my odds of getting the job were about 50/50. The interviewers were smart and they were asking hard questions.

But when I asked them to comment on their two recent bankruptcies, it changed the mood entirely. At that point, the entire "vibe" of the interview shifted. It became CLEAR that they'd been losing employees at a furious pace, because of their financial struggles.

Once we talked about "the elephant in the room," the entire interview tone changed, and they made me an offer in less than twelve hours.

My "hunch" is that they'd been grilling interviewees (because they were smart folks) but had been scaring interviewees off because they were in such terrible financial shape.

Basically, potential hires were ghosting them because of their financial problems, while they were simultaneously discussing technical issues when the real issue was financial.

I accepted the offer, and the company is still around. I had a similar interview experience at FTD in San Diego (the florist), and they are kaput:

https://www.cnbc.com/2019/06/03/flower-delivery-company-ftd-...

41. gamblor956 ◴[] No.42844353[source]
Without going into too much detail, contractors will be hired typically to contribute to capital expenditure and employees to the latter.

That doesn't make any sense. In any situation in which a contractor expense would be capitalized, an employee's salary would also be capitalized. Labor costs are labor costs; whether someone is a contractor or an employee is a labor law issue, not a tax issue. (Internal R&D was the big exception to the capitalization rule, but that loophole was closed, which is what prompted a lot of tech and videogame layoffs over the past 2 years.)

42. NoLinkToMe ◴[] No.42845073{3}[source]
I'm in a VC-owned business with a 50% profit ebitda. But a common trick is to just load it with debt. The VC firm pays out all profits as dividends, all investments into restructuring, M&A and new technology is paid for by high-interest loans from the shareholder. What's left is a company that barely cashflows as all profit goes towards paying interest to the VC firm.

The appointed management team has to operate within that scope (i.e. no real budget to work with, despite the 50% interest), and they squeeze a bit more each year, meaning it's an uphill battle each year to get a raise or promotion. On top of that it's a cashcow in an otherwise dying and slowly shrinking business sector.

In other words a terrible place for general salary growth.

So I'd add two points to your list which is to: look for (1) profitable companies, (2) in expanding markets, (3) that aren't owned by VC.

Startups have their own set of rules where (3) doesn't really apply as much.

43. cutemonster ◴[] No.42847634{3}[source]
If you have time, how can capex, an expense, appear as earnings? (I'm pretty clueless about these things)

Aha, it's that: "Opex is subtracted from earnings before public reporting and before taxes" (I see in other comments here),

but capex is not subtracted, so then it looks as if the company is doing better, on paper, although it's not. And this works only for a while, maybe some years? Which might be long enough for the current management, if they leave before things get too bad?

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44. marcosdumay ◴[] No.42848878{4}[source]
"Capex expenses" are investments. And the investment is one of the two things a company may do with profits, the other is paying dividends.

Just by classifying something as capex, it's automatically classified as profit already.

replies(1): >>42858525 #
45. cutemonster ◴[] No.42858525{5}[source]
Thanks!
46. OJFord ◴[] No.42860540{6}[source]
I don't think by 'public companies' they meant 'private companies', no.
47. OJFord ◴[] No.42860567{6}[source]
I didn't say anything about '"lifestyle companies" [sic]'. I don't even think we were talking just about 'tech'?