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No Calls

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1603 points ezekg | 31 comments | | HN request time: 1.026s | source | bottom
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freedomben ◴[] No.42728008[source]
I'm a CTO who makes purchasing decisions. There are numerous products I likely would have purchased, but I either find a substitute or just go without because I won't play the stupid "let's get on a call" game.

If your website doesn't give me enough information to:

1. Know enough about your product to know that it will (generally speaking) meet my needs/requirements.

2. Know that the pricing is within the ballpark of reasonable given what your product does.

Then I will move on (unless I'm really desparate, which I assure you is rarely the case). I've rolled-my-own solution more than once as well when there were no other good competitors.

That's not to say that calls never work or don't have a place, because they definitely do. The key to using the call successfully (with me at least) is to use the call to get into true details about my needs, after I know that you're at least in the ballpark. Additionally, the call should be done efficiently. We don't need a 15 minute introduction and overview about you. We don't need a bunch of small talk about weather or sports. 2 minutes of that is ok, or when waiting for additional people to join the call, but beyond that I have things to do.

I know what my needs are. I understand you need some context on my company and needs in order to push useful information forward, and I also understand that many potential customers will not take the lead in asking questions and providing that context, but the sooner you take the temperature and adjust, the better. Also, you can get pretty far as a salesperson if you just spend 5 minutes looking at our website before the call! Then you don't have to ask basic questions about what we do. If you're willing to invest in the time to get on a call, then it's worth a few minutes of time before-hand to look at our website.

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freedomben ◴[] No.42728440[source]
Oh I might add another huge thing: Have a way to justify/explain your pricing and how you came to that number. When you have to "learn about my company" in order to give me pricing info, I know you're just making the price up based on what you think I can pay. That's going to backfire on you because after you send me pricing, I'm going to ask you how you arrived at those numbers. Is it by vCPU? by vRAM? by number of instances? by number of API calls per month? by number of employees? by number of "seats"? If you don't have some objective way of determining the price you want to charge me, you're going to feel really stupid and embarrassed when I drill into the details.
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1. jhallenworld ◴[] No.42732046[source]
>you're just making the price up based on what you think I can pay

It should be based on the email address used. If, for example, your email ends in @google.com, you get charged more. If it ends in @aol.com, then they take pity on you and you get a discount.

My co-worker's grandfather owned a TV repair business. The price was entirely based on the appearance of the person and had nothing to do with the actual problem. This way rich people subsidize the repairs of poor people.

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2. WJW ◴[] No.42732263[source]
More like the people who appear rich subsidize the repairs of the people who appear poor. Probably usually fairly accurate but it's amusing to think about the edge cases where the truly rich don't feel the need to dress wealthy anymore and get their TV repaired for cheap.
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3. Aeolun ◴[] No.42732425[source]
One of the big benefits of wealth is that everything costs less. This is just an extension of that.
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4. WJW ◴[] No.42732483{3}[source]
Don't want to be a hater but the parent of my previous post was literally about charging more for rich people. That is the entire point of enterprise plans too.
5. shepherdjerred ◴[] No.42732872[source]
> This way rich people subsidize the repairs of poor people.

tbh I have no problem with this as long as the work was done well.

6. IG_Semmelweiss ◴[] No.42733298[source]
Correct. Market value is not the cost of making X plus a margin. Many people get that wrong.

Marker value is what someone else is willing to pay.

7. yndoendo ◴[] No.42733491[source]
If I remember correctly, Amtrak does something like this for pricing their train tickets. It is not the cost of going from A to B. It is priced so the more populated area travelers, North East Coast, pay higher to help reduce the cost for those in the middle of the USA. This helps make tickets more adorable for the more poor individuals.
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8. theoreticalmal ◴[] No.42733560[source]
> make train tickets more adorable

amtrak uwu

9. eru ◴[] No.42733828{3}[source]
Wealthy people usually spend more---just because they are less price sensitive and care more about other metrics.

I'm not sure how everything 'costs less'?

You could say that wealthy people can substitute money for time. So they need to spend less eg working hours for each good consumed.

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10. 0_____0 ◴[] No.42734726[source]
I know at least one millionaire who seem to own maximum one pair of pants that doesn't have holes in it. Especially in tech, it can be hard to tell. The one conversation I had with a FAANG CEO, he was wearing athletic clothes, as if he'd ducked into the office during a run.
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11. l0ng1nu5 ◴[] No.42735954{4}[source]
I think he's getting at the pair of boots theory.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boots_theory

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12. ◴[] No.42736284{3}[source]
13. Aeolun ◴[] No.42736985{5}[source]
That. You can spend money to save money in the long run. Just buy the house instead of having to pay for mortgage. Invest it so that it’s generating money while you do nothing. Many things only accessible if you already have money.
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14. carimura ◴[] No.42738298[source]
I've always wondered about this. My wife always tells me to close the garage when folks come to the house to give us bids on jobs so they don't see the cars. Not that a Tesla indicates wealth but I guess it indicates something? I tell her she's paranoid... maybe she's not.
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15. immibis ◴[] No.42739138{3}[source]
You don't care how much money they have, but how much they'll spend on your product. If they won't spend much on pants, they probably won't spend much on your product, either.
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16. Latteland ◴[] No.42740161[source]
I think your wife is right. I have a tesla and I always think about that indicating something. Also Tesla's are so ubiquitous it doesn't matter that much like it used to be, and you can get a used one for pretty cheap. But that rich guy reputation still persists.

And then now that we have Elon Musk following the Howard Hughes self destructive cycle (greatest video game player AND ceo of 5 companies who posts all day on social media), there's a very possible negative takeaway - especially in tech it's hard to know. I live in a ridiculous world, I actually see 'got mine before elon was a doofus' bumper stickers. We should all try to judge each other on actual behavior and choices. I'm an asshole completely separate from buying a tesla a decade ago, people.

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17. snowfarthing ◴[] No.42742957[source]
According to "The Millionaire Next Door", this is actually a surprisingly common "edge case". The "rich" are the people who diligently save and invest, get their hands dirty at what they do, and don't care about pretenses -- they'll drive a beat-up pickup truck because it helps them at their work, and they can take it out for fishing and hunting, and they can have it paid off -- while that pretty Porsche is going to just sit in a driveway and rust, because it's too nice to take it for a run doing the things you want to do!

Whereas the "high income" people -- typically doctors and lawyers -- are spending lots of money on nice suits and cars and homes, but have little to show for it in terms of actual wealth.

Having said that, I don't mind the rich who aren't pretentious getting a discount. I'd call it a "pretention tax". What's further ironic is that the former tend to appreciate paying a little extra if it ensures that a job is well-done, whereas the latter tend to skimp on paying extra, and often get the poor-quality results you'd expect.

And yes, there's exceptions to both categories, too -- indeed, it's not as if it's hard to live within your means as a doctor or a lawyer, if you don't mind looking a little "lower class" as a result (and if your clientele are the working class, this may even be a bonus!). But it's nonetheless a fascinating dynamic to keep in mind!

18. cafard ◴[] No.42743214{3}[source]
Henry Ford was a real piece of work for a good while. I'm not sure how much it would have affected his sales--not that he was selling to the upper end of the market.
19. 0_____0 ◴[] No.42743928{4}[source]
It's not a good indicator that they won't spend money either. These people have a different idea of what's worthwhile, and often times indicating status through clothing is not something they see a ton of signal in.
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20. shkkmo ◴[] No.42744018{4}[source]
I wouldn't go as far to say "everything costs less" but it is pretty well that established that poverty is very expensive.

A couple of key examples:

Food deserts often mean that groceries are more expensive in poorer areas as opposed to neighboring rich ones. Additionally, bulk food is cheaper but requires having enough funds to buy more than your immediate needs.

It is generally cheaper to own your own home than to rent and low income people are going to pay higher interest on the same home loan.

It is always cheaper for rich people to borrow money than poor people and poor people are often forced into debt in situations where rich people can dip into savings. Having to pay interest on your rainy day debt is way more expensive than getting paid interest on your rainy day savings.

That last one is huge, and tends to compound across all kinds of other areas, increasing the effective price that poor people pay for almost everything.

In the most general sense, it is often feasible to spend more money up front to save money down the road. The amount of interest poor people have to pay to do this reduces or even totally wipes out any savings.

This is all pretty well documented and studied. It's part of the unfortunate feedback cycle at the bottom of the economic bracket that makes climbing back out harder the poorer you get.

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21. eru ◴[] No.42746159{5}[source]
Yes, that theory was never very convincing to me. I grew up on welfare and now make software developer money. I can tell you that I definitely spend more on shoes now, even if they last longer.

Yes, a rich person and a poor person could try to buy the same items and the rich person might be able to buy them cheaper. But: first, when you have more money you generally want to buy nicer stuff, and the bang-for-buck generally goes down. Nicer shoes might cost twice as much, but they are perhaps twenty percent better. (And that's worth it for well-off people!)

Second, you can save a lot of money if you are willing to invest some time. From DIY or just generally shopping around. But: rich people's time is more expensive, even if just by opportunity costs.

From the Wikipedia article:

> In June 2024, the National Bureau of Economic Research from USA published a working paper expanding on the ONS findings, showing that cheapflation, a term the authors coined, is a global phenomenon:[21] "prices of cheaper goods increased at a faster rate than those of more expensive varieties of the same product",[22] thus placing a higher financial burden on poor people.

Funny enough, this observation is perfectly compatible with the notion that everyone, including poorer people, got richer over time as the economy grew, and so the cheapest and nastiest goods were removed from the market. The cheapest most basic TV you can buy today is miles better than what you could buy in the 1970s for example.

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22. eru ◴[] No.42751910{6}[source]
> You can spend money to save money in the long run. Just buy the house instead of having to pay for mortgage. Invest it so that it’s generating money while you do nothing.

It's all about opportunity costs.

If the interest on your mortgage pays less than you can get in eg the stock market, you are better off not paying your mortgage. (Ignoring fees and taxes for a moment.)

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23. j45 ◴[] No.42757703{4}[source]
Or they just value things that can make or save them money more.
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24. j45 ◴[] No.42757708{5}[source]
Well said. Time is really the wealth, and those with less money have to give up more of their time figuring out things. Wealth buys time, and time of others, to help the time of the payer.
25. consteval ◴[] No.42761494{6}[source]
> But: first, when you have more money you generally want to buy nicer stuff, and the bang-for-buck generally goes down.

This isn't necessarily a fact of human nature, this is just an extension of Greed.

There is an inflection point, where the price of a good is minimized whereas it's quality and lifespan is maximized. Such an inflection point is somewhat high - meaning it cannot be reached by poor people.

Sometimes people cannot be satisfied, and they will go well past the inflection point. Such behavior is, of course, completely optional and almost always self-destructive.

Sure, a Birkin might be pretty, but really any decently made leather bag will run circles around what you can find at Target. The Birkin isn't bought for quality.

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26. eru ◴[] No.42764140{7}[source]
> There is an inflection point, where the price of a good is minimized whereas it's quality and lifespan is maximized. Such an inflection point is somewhat high - meaning it cannot be reached by poor people.

You say that as if it's universally true of all goods.

Btw, finance is one way to transform cap-ex into op-ex. That's why we have mortgages and you can rent things.

> Sure, a Birkin might be pretty, but really any decently made leather bag will run circles around what you can find at Target. The Birkin isn't bought for quality.

That's why you don't buy a leather bag when you are poor and have your wits about you. Leather is expensive. Not just absolutely, but also per use of your bag.

27. eru ◴[] No.42764142{5}[source]
Yes, but no one prohibits poor people from changing their values.
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28. abustamam ◴[] No.42772468{7}[source]
Poor people often can't even make this decision because they can't afford to do either.
29. abustamam ◴[] No.42772601{5}[source]
I'm not rich but I make software money and I can attest to this. I follow a personal finance guru named Ramit Sethi and his motto is to cut costs on things that don't bring you joy in life so you can spend extravagantly on the things that do bring you joy. This applies to all people, not just rich people, though obviously the scale is different for people with higher income/net worths.

For me, I don't see a need to spend a lot of money on clothes because I work at home without video. But I will spend on luxury vacations and dinners, and I will certainly spend money on services that can help save me time at home/work.

30. abustamam ◴[] No.42772641{3}[source]
I live in a California 'burb and with all the tax credits, you really do see Teslas everywhere. You could be driving through a run down neighborhood and you could still see a Tesla around.

I'm not quite understanding the point you're trying to make about the bumper stickers though. I think Elon's actual behavior and choices are what causing people to have these bumper stickers.

31. ◴[] No.42817178{6}[source]