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161 points isaacfrond | 6 comments | | HN request time: 1.09s | source | bottom
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danwills ◴[] No.42724002[source]
I'd really love to know what the mathematicians are actually doing when they work this stuff out? Is it all on computers now? Can they somehow visualize 24-dimensional-sphere-packings in their minds? Are they maybe rigorously checking results of a 'test function' that tells them they found a correct/optimal packing? I would love to know more about what the day-to-day work involved in this type of research actually would be!
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davethedevguy ◴[] No.42724129[source]
Likewise!

In higher dimensions, are the spheres just a visual metaphor based on the 3-dimensional problem, or are mathematicians really visualising spheres with physical space between them?

Is that even a valid question, or does it just betray my inability to perceive higher dimensions?

This is fascinating and I'm in awe of the people that do this work.

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jstanley ◴[] No.42724173[source]
> just a visual metaphor

It's not really a metaphor.

An n-sphere is the set of all points that are the same distance away from the same centre, in (n+1)-dimensional space. That generalises perfectly well to any number of dimensions.

In 1 dimension you get 2 points (0-sphere), in 2 dimensions you get a circle (1-sphere), in 3 dimensions you get a sphere (2-sphere), etc.

EDIT: Also, if you slice a plane through a sphere, you get a circle. If you slice a line through a circle, you get 2 points. If you slice a 3d space through a hypersphere in 4d space, do you get a normal sphere? Probably.

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close04 ◴[] No.42724324[source]
> etc.

That's handwaving the answer just as you were getting to the crux of the matter. "Are mathematicians really visualising spheres with physical space between them" in higher dimensions than 3 (or maybe 4)?

From the experience of some of the bigger minds in mathematics I met during my PhD, they don't actually visualize a practical representation of the sphere in this case since that would be untenable especially in much higher dimensions, like 24 (!). They all "visualized" the equations but in ways that gave them much more insight than you or I might imagine just by looking at the text.

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neom ◴[] No.42724535[source]
I have dyscalculia so I'm always studying how people who have "math minds" work, especially because I have an strong spacial visual thinking style, i thought i should be good at thinking about physical math. When I found out they're not visualizing the stuff but instead "visualized the equations together and imaging them into new ones" - I gave up my journey into math.
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semi-extrinsic ◴[] No.42725863[source]
My two cents on this: I've done a lot of math, up to graduate courses in weird stuff like operator algebra. I've also read quite a bit of maths pedagogy.

I've come to understand that the key thing that determines success in math is ability to compress concepts.

When young children learn arithmetic, some are able to compress addition such that it takes almost zero effort, and then they can play around with the concept in their minds. For them, taking the next step to multiplication is almost trivial.

When a college math student learns the triangle inequality, >99.99% understand it on a superficial level. But <0.01% compress it and play around with it in their minds, and can subsequently wield it like an elegant tool in surprising contexts. These are the people with "math minds".

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neom ◴[] No.42725949[source]
wow.

I have been posting on hackernews "I have dyscalculia" for years in hopes for a comment like this, basically praying someone like you would reply with the right "thinking framework" for me - THANK YOU! This is the first time I've heard this, thought about this, and I sort of understand what you mean, if you're able to expand on it in any way, that concept, maybe I can think how I do it in other areas I can map it? I also have dyslexia, and have not found a good strategy for phonics yet, and I'm now 40, so I'm not sure I ever will hehe :))

I even struggle with times tables because the lifting is really hard for me for some reason, it always amazes me people can do 8x12 in their heads.

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1. eszed ◴[] No.42728534[source]
Calculating 8x12 in my head relies on a trick / technique - they call it "chunking", I believe, in the Common Core maths curriculum that US parents get so angry about - that (I'm also in my 40s) was never demonstrated in schools when we were kids. (They tried to make me memorize the 12x table, which I couldn't, so I calculated it my way instead; took a little longer, but not so much that anyone caught on that I wasn't doing what the teacher said.) I'd like to think I was smart enough to work it out for myself, but I suspect my dad showed it to me.

I'll show it to you, but first: are you able to add 80 + 16 in your head? (There's another trick to learn for that.)

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2. neom ◴[] No.42730092[source]
96, easy. Lets go, real time math tutoring in the hackernews comments, 2025 baby! :D
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3. eszed ◴[] No.42733835[source]
:-)

12 is made up of a 10 and a 2.

What's 8 x 10? 80.

What's 8 x 2? 16.

Add 'em up? 96, baby!

They teach you to do math on paper from right to left (ones column -> tens column, etc), I find chunking works best if you approach from left to right. Like, multiply the hundreds, then the tens (and add the extra digit to the hundreds-total you already derived), then the ones place (ditto).

It's limited by your short-term memory. I can do a single-digit times anything up to maybe five digits. Two-digits by two digits, mostly. Three-digits times three digits I don't have the working memory for.

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4. neom ◴[] No.42733864{3}[source]
Seems my math teachers in school...er..didn't. That makes sense, I know how to write math out on paper and solve it, but then my instinct has always been to reach for that method mentally, so I literally draw a pen and paper in my imagination, and look at it and do the math and it takes way too long so I just give up, this seems like I can just learn more rules and then apply them, as long as I have the rules.

Thank you kindly for taking the time to teach me this! This thread has been one of the most useful things in a long ass time that's for sure. If I can ever be helpful to you, email is in the bio. :)

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5. eszed ◴[] No.42734665{4}[source]
My pleasure! I'm no one's idea of a mathematician, but I enjoy employing arithmetic tricks and shortcuts like this one.

A few years ago I had an in-depth conversation with a (then) sixth-grader of my acquaintance, and came away impressed with the "Common Core" way of teaching maths. His parents were frustrated with it, because it didn't match the paper-based methods of calculation they (and you and I) had been taught, but he'd learned a bunch of these sorts of tricks, and from them had derived a good (probably, if I'm honest, better than mine) intuition for arithmetic relationships.

6. jacobolus ◴[] No.42746758[source]
There are lots of good ways to break down this multiplication problem:

8 × 12 = 8 × (10 + 2) = 8 × 10 + 8 × 2 = 80 + 16 = 96

8 × 12 = (10 − 2) × 12 = 10 × 12 − 2 × 12 = 120 − 24 = 96

8 × 12 = (10 − 2) × (10 + 2) = 10 × 10 − 2 × 2 = 100 − 4 = 96

8 × 12 = (5 + 3) × 12 = 5 × 12 + 3 × 12 = 60 + 36 = 96

8 × 12 = 4 × 24 = 2 × 48 = 96

8 × 12 = 2³ × (2² × 3) = 2⁵ × 3 = 32 × 3 = 96

etc.