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237 points ekr____ | 17 comments | | HN request time: 0.379s | source | bottom
1. samsquire ◴[] No.42724271[source]
Thanks for such a detailed article.

In my spare time working with C as a hobby I am usually in "vertical mode" which is different to how I would work (carefully) at work, which is just getting things done end-to-end as fast as possible, not careful at every step that we have no memory errors. So I am just trying to get something working end-to-end so I do not actually worry about memory management when writing C. So I let the operating system handle memory freeing. I am trying to get the algorithm working in my hobby time.

And since I wrote everything in Python or Javascript initially, I am usually porting from Python to C.

If I were using Rust, it would force me to be careful in the same way, due to the borrow checker.

I am curious: we have reference counting and we have Profile guided optimisation.

Could "reference counting" be compiled into a debug/profiled build and then detect which regions of time we free things in before or after (there is a happens before relation with dropping out of scopes that reference counting needs to run) to detect where to insert frees? (We Write timing metadata from the RC build, that encapsulates the happens before relationships)

Then we could recompile with a happens-before relation file that has correlations where things should be freed to be safe.

EDIT: Any discussion about those stack diagrams and alignment should include a link to this wikipedia page;

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Data_structure_alignment

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2. jvanderbot ◴[] No.42724597[source]
> which is just getting things done end-to-end as fast as possible, not careful at every step that we have no memory errors.

One horrible but fun thing a former professor of mine pointed out: If your program isn't going to live long, then you never have to deallocate memory. Once it exits, the OS will happily clean it up for you.

This works in C or perhaps lazy GC languages, but for stateful objects where destructors do meaningful work, like in C++, this is dangerous. This is one of the reasons I hate C++ so much: Unintended side effects that you have to trigger.

> Could "reference counting" be compiled into a debug/profiled build and then detect which regions of time we free things in before or after (there is a happens before relation with dropping out of scopes that reference counting needs to run) to detect where to insert frees?

This is what Rust does, kinda.

C++ also does this with "stack" allocated objects - it "frees" (calls destructor and cleans up) when they go out of scope. And in C++, heap allocated data (if you're using a smart pointer) will automatically deallocate when the last reference drops, but this is not done at compile time.

Those are the only two memory management models I'm familiar with enough to comment on.

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3. caspper69 ◴[] No.42724727[source]
Nothing is going to tell you where to put your free() calls to guarantee memory safety (otherwise Rust wouldn't exist).

There are tools that will tell you they're missing, however. Read up on Valgrind and ASAN.

In C, non-global variables go out of scope when the function they are created in ends. So if you malloc() in a fn, free() at the end.

If you're doing everything with globals in a short-running program, let the OS do it if that suits you (makes me feel dirty).

This whole problem doesn't get crazy until your program gets more complicated. Once you have a lot of pointers among objects with different lifetimes. or you decide to add some concurrency (or parallelism), or when you have a lot of cooks in the kitchen.

In the applications you say you are writing, just ask yourself if you're going to use a variable again. If not, and it is using dynamically-allocated memory, free() it.

Don't psych yourself out, it's just C.

And yes, there are ref-counting libraries for C. But I wouldn't want to write my program twice, once to use the ref-counting library in debug mode and another to use malloc/free in release mode. That sounds exhausting for all but the most trivial programs.

4. mgaunard ◴[] No.42724802[source]
In C, not all objects need to be their own allocated entity (like they are in other languages). They can be stored in-line within another object, which means the lifetime of that object is necessarily constrained by that of its parent.

You could make every object its own allocated entity, but then you're losing most of the benefits of using C, which is the ability to control memory layout of objects.

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5. SkiFire13 ◴[] No.42725393[source]
> I am curious: we have reference counting and we have Profile guided optimisation. > > Could "reference counting" be compiled into a debug/profiled build and then detect which regions of time we free things in before or after (there is a happens before relation with dropping out of scopes that reference counting needs to run) to detect where to insert frees?

Profile guided optimizations can only gather informations about what's most probable, but they can't give knowledge about things about what will surely happen. For freeing however you most often want that knowledge, because not freeing will result in a memory leak (and freeing too early will result in a use-aftee-free, which you definitely want to avoid so the analysis needs to be conservative!). In the end this can only be an _optimization_ (just like profile guided _optimization_s are just optimizations!) on top of a workflows that is ok with leaking everything.

6. MarkSweep ◴[] No.42728876[source]
There is this old chestnut about “null garbage collectors”:

https://devblogs.microsoft.com/oldnewthing/20180228-00/?p=98...

> This sparked an interesting memory for me. I was once working with a customer who was producing on-board software for a missile. In my analysis of the code, I pointed out that they had a number of problems with storage leaks. Imagine my surprise when the customers chief software engineer said "Of course it leaks". He went on to point out that they had calculated the amount of memory the application would leak in the total possible flight time for the missile and then doubled that number. They added this much additional memory to the hardware to "support" the leaks. Since the missile will explode when it hits its target or at the end of its flight, the ultimate in garbage collection is performed without programmer intervention.

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7. pjmlp ◴[] No.42729143[source]
The wonders of corrupted data, stale advisory locks and UNIX IPC leftovers, because they weren't properly flushed, or closed before process termination.
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8. pjmlp ◴[] No.42729420[source]
As any systems programming language include those that predate C by a decade, and still it doesn't allow full control without compiler extensions, if you really want full control of memory layout of objects, Assembly is the only way.
replies(1): >>42732644 #
9. jvanderbot ◴[] No.42730248{3}[source]
Rapid disassembly as GC. Love it.

Have you heard the related story about the patriot missile system?

https://www.cs.unc.edu/~smp/COMP205/LECTURES/ERROR/lec23/nod...

Not a GC issue, but fun software bug.

10. jvanderbot ◴[] No.42730360{3}[source]
I'll narrow my scope more explicitly:

close(x) is not memory management - not at the user level. This should be done.

free(p) has no O/S side effects like this in C - this can be not-done if you don't malloc all your memory.

You can get away with not de-allocating program memory, but (as mentioned), that has nothing to do with freeing Os/ kernel / networking resources in C.

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11. PhilipRoman ◴[] No.42731620{4}[source]
Most kernel resources are fairly well behaved, as they will automatically decrement their refcount when a process exits. Even mutexes have a "robust" flag for this exact reason. Programs which rely on destructors or any other form or orderly exit are always brittle and should be rewritten to use atomic operations.
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12. gizmo686 ◴[] No.42732644{3}[source]
In practice C let's you control memory layout just fine. You might need to use __attribute__((packed)), which is technically non standard.

I've written hardware device drivers in pure C where you need need to peek and poke at specific bits on the memory bus. I defined a struct that matched the exact memory layout that the hardware specifies. Then cast an integer to a pointer to that struct type. At which point I could interact with the hardware by directly reading/writing fields if the struct (most of which were not even byte aligned).

It is not quite that simple, as you also have to deal with bypassing the cache, memory barriers, possibly virtual memory, finding the erreta that clarifies the originaly published register address was completely wrong. But I don't think any of that is what people mean when they say "memory layout".

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13. pjmlp ◴[] No.42734820{4}[source]
Now split the struct across registers in C.

You are aware that some of those casting tricks are UB, right?

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14. pjmlp ◴[] No.42734826{5}[source]
Which kernel, on which specific OS?

This is a very non portable assumption, even we constrain it to only across UNIX/POSIX flavours.

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15. gizmo686 ◴[] No.42735076{5}[source]
Casting integers to pointers in C is implementation defined, not UB. In practice compilers define these casts as the natural thing for the architecture you are compiling to. Since mainstream CPUs don't do anything fancy with pointer tagging, that means the implementation defined behave does exactly what you expect it to do (unless you forget that you have paging enabled and cannot simply point to a hardware memory address).

If you want to control register layout, then C is not going to help you, but that is not typically what is meant by "memory layout".

And if you want to control cache usage ... Some architectures do expose some black magic which you would need to go to assembly to access. But for the most part controlling cache involves understanding how the cache works, then controlling the memory layout and accesses to work well with the cache.

16. gpderetta ◴[] No.42735287{3}[source]
Untill the software is reused for a newer model with longer range and they forget to increase the ram size.

But of course that would never happen, wouldn't it?

17. PhilipRoman ◴[] No.42735327{6}[source]
As far as assumptions go, it's actually one of the most portable ones and for a good reason, considering it is a basic part of building a reliable system. Quoting POSIX:

Consequences of Process Termination

Process termination caused by any reason shall have the following consequences:

[..] All of the file descriptors, directory streams, conversion descriptors, and message catalog descriptors open in the calling process shall be closed.

[..] Each attached shared-memory segment is detached and the value of shm_nattch (see shmget()) in the data structure associated with its shared memory ID shall be decremented by 1.

For each semaphore for which the calling process has set a semadj value (see semop()), that value shall be added to the semval of the specified semaphore.

[..] If the process is a controlling process, the controlling terminal associated with the session shall be disassociated from the session, allowing it to be acquired by a new controlling process.

[..] All open named semaphores in the calling process shall be closed as if by appropriate calls to sem_close().

Any memory locks established by the process via calls to mlockall() or mlock() shall be removed. If locked pages in the address space of the calling process are also mapped into the address spaces of other processes and are locked by those processes, the locks established by the other processes shall be unaffected by the call by this process to _Exit() or _exit().

Memory mappings that were created in the process shall be unmapped before the process is destroyed.

Any blocks of typed memory that were mapped in the calling process shall be unmapped, as if munmap() was implicitly called to unmap them.

All open message queue descriptors in the calling process shall be closed as if by appropriate calls to mq_close().