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32 points nabla9 | 45 comments | | HN request time: 2.199s | source | bottom
1. 77pt77 ◴[] No.42480503[source]
It's the Mathew principle all the way down.

Actually it's a bit worse, in the sense that if you exhibit competence without the "appropriate pedigree" all you'll get is punishment.

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2. billy99k ◴[] No.42480504[source]
"This suggests that academic success is shaped by structural forces similar to those that govern social mobility, where the advantage of having a top mentor can lead to a self-reinforcing cycle of success"

This is not surprising. Poor or rich, if you have good family support, you have a much better chance at success. This can be seen with rich kids with absent/uncaring parents blowing all of their money within a couple of years/going to jail/becoming alcoholics or drug addicts.

3. lr4444lr ◴[] No.42480507[source]
In everyday life, parents and children do not choose each other, whereas in academia, mentors and mentees actively select one another.

I don't think the distinction is nearly as concrete as the authors seem to assume.

Parents, in choosing their mates, certainly have in mind a broad set of concepts about how their offspring should turn out, and even the most gentle and supportive of them have values, behaviors, and disciplinary strategies they put into place to mold their children - obviously not a guaranteed outcome, but certainly on the whole correlative in many dimensions of child outcomes we could measure.

In the opposite direction, I would not assume mentor and mentee relationships in academic are as fluid and breakable as the author might assume. Students make major decisions about where even to attend graduate programs based on prospective but not promised guarantees to work with mentors, and mentors take on mentees based on initial impressions of research compatibility that don't always turn out as positive as they might have hoped, and it's not that easy when grant money or institutional budgeting is at stake to reverse these decisions.

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4. SubiculumCode ◴[] No.42480586[source]
Not my experience at all, as a first generation college student, now research faculty at a highly regarded University.
replies(2): >>42480608 #>>42482039 #
5. 77pt77 ◴[] No.42480608{3}[source]
"Pedigree" assumes many forms.

The fact that you are a "first generation college student" is irrelevant and conclusively shows that you do not understand what's at stake.

I can assure you, you are wrong.

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6. SubiculumCode ◴[] No.42480630{4}[source]
Yes, I misunderstood, and was just about to delete my comment, but you caught me.
replies(1): >>42481140 #
7. ◴[] No.42480647{4}[source]
8. gtmitchell ◴[] No.42480657[source]
I think this result is obvious to anyone who has spent any time in the academic world, although it is nice to see some solid numbers behind it.

The harsh truth is that key to academic career advancement is who you know much more than what you know. I every single person I knew in graduate school who got a postdoc position did so through informal means (i.e. knowing someone who knew someone), and having letters of recommendation written by the right people from the right departments at the right schools opens all sorts of doors to the academic hierarchy that would otherwise be closed.

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9. ilrwbwrkhv ◴[] No.42480749[source]
Yep, this. Another reason why the left has lost all public trust in institutions. Too much of elitism and connections.
replies(1): >>42480760 #
10. 77pt77 ◴[] No.42480760{3}[source]
This is completely general and independent of left/right liberal/conservative dualities.
replies(2): >>42481037 #>>42481149 #
11. Al-Khwarizmi ◴[] No.42480770{4}[source]
Not the person you're replying to, but if you are going to make sweeping statements like "you are wrong", you should explain a bit more, because your argument is somewhat too vague to engage with meaningfully.

Obviously one can find discrimination anywhere, but I don't think it's as systematic as you seem to imply. Most academics are under considerable pressure to publish or generate results, so e.g. when faced with hiring a postdoc or a PhD candidate, they don't have the luxury of rejecting a brilliant candidate that could be productive for spurious reasons.

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12. 77pt77 ◴[] No.42480842{5}[source]
Well, the person I replied to aparently understood, so it wasn't as "sweeping" as you are implying.
13. newsclues ◴[] No.42480848[source]
I didn’t get informed consent to be born to my mother and father.

No choice in being alive or who would be my parents.

Isn’t that normal?

14. naming_the_user ◴[] No.42480965[source]
Does anyone else feel as if most of these studies are kind of just navel gazing? Like someone just needs to fill their time with busy work and so here's an easy academic job they can do that doesn't really give any new information?

If genetics/parental upbringing had very little to do with child outcomes then the entire concept of parenting would be irrelevant.

You could just choose any partner, have a child, leave them to fend for themselves on the street, it'd all be down to random chance and then suddenly 50% of those kids end up in the 50th percentile or above academically, financially, whatever metric you choose.

I would intuitively need an incredibly, incredibly strong proof to show the opposite were true, on par with someone telling me that in their city gravity runs backwards or something.

replies(1): >>42481709 #
15. ilrwbwrkhv ◴[] No.42481037{4}[source]
Not quite. Almost all academia and universities are left leaning. It directly falls on the left's head that people lost trust and faith in these institutions.
replies(1): >>42481235 #
16. vouaobrasil ◴[] No.42481133[source]
I don't think it's nurture as the article suggests. Academic success (I define it as getting a permanent position) is mainly finding a researcher or research group that likes you. That's basically it. It's who you know.
replies(1): >>42481579 #
17. SubiculumCode ◴[] No.42481140{5}[source]
I'll briefly expand. 1. Committed the sin of not reading the article, which as you may know is rampant in academia ;) 2. When I first came into grad school I got caught up into a conversation with several professors who were (lightheartedly) bragging about their academic pedigree, but in the familial sense, listing a prominent scientist or three with whom their was some relation, if not immediate, not entirely distant either..and it struck me then that professors are more likely to have relations that are professors, etc, leading to my misunderstanding. I, of course, know about the other type of academic lineage. My academic grandmother, my academic great grandfather, and so on, aka mentor's mentor's mentor. In this sense, I came into academia under a decent pedigree: Simona Ghetti (my advisor, prominent for her work on the development of episodic memory and meta cognition of memory), Gail Goodman (academic grandmother, widely credited with starting the modern scientific study of children's eyewitness memory and child victims as witnesses in legal contexts.)
replies(1): >>42481223 #
18. Ma8ee ◴[] No.42481149{4}[source]
No, the right seems to very happy with elitism and connections.
19. Galanwe ◴[] No.42481164[source]
There's already a gazillion sociological studies on this subject from the 70s onward.
20. 77pt77 ◴[] No.42481223{6}[source]
> I came into academia under a decent pedigree

So you did get it.

Just another note.

If you had the wrong facial bone structure, or some kind of deformity (before starting, not after like Hawking before anyone makes the point), or you were ridiculously short, or your voice had the wrong pitch, or a myriad of other traits, then that starting academic "pedigree" wouldn't have happened.

If you, by any chance worked in a field where you can work on your own and actually achieve something alone (you don't), had you achieved some great result you would have at best been ignored, but usually ridiculed.

If you insisted, the punishment would just get more and more vicious, but usually ignoring is enough.

It's the Matthew principle:

> For unto every one that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but from him that hath not shall be taken away even that which he hath.

This is ingrained in human psychology innately (like the just world fallacy and other delusions) and there is no way around it.

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21. thefaux ◴[] No.42481235{5}[source]
You really don't think that reactionary conservatism is not a factor too? Clearly the left has problems with excessive purity demands (just like the right) but I can't accept institutional failure as solely the fault of one side.
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22. JDEW ◴[] No.42481242[source]
Maybe I’m misunderstanding the article, but I find it baffling that they don’t mention the simple fact that the “best” professors have access to the “best” students. Especially early in career students. Never mind the fact that great schools -> employ great researchers -> enroll great students, even within one cohort this is clear. The top 5% of a class can do their undergraduate research everywhere they please and are in fact often scouted out by top chairs.
23. cvwright ◴[] No.42481255[source]
Yeah. I used to think it was all nepotism / corruption, but (at least in STEM fields) there’s a bit more to it. My phd advisor is one of the most intense, hardcore people I’ve ever met. If he says someone is a good researcher, that counts for A LOT with anyone who knows his standards. There is no amount of stuff on a resume that could outweigh the word of someone like that.
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24. godelski ◴[] No.42481261[source]
Academic success depends on intelligence, creativity, but also the way you speak. Being someone coming from the outside (first in my family to do a PhD) this is something I discuss frequently with others that are in similar positions. We don’t struggle with research so much as understanding how to write in the same language, understanding what is “novel” or rather how to convey something is novel and not explain in a way that makes it obvious post hoc. Understanding which research topics are worthy or not. Some of this is even true for people who transfer fields. So I would expect you can find a gradient of the success compared to how closely aligned the child is to their parent’s research.
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25. bsder ◴[] No.42481278[source]
> In the opposite direction, I would not assume mentor and mentee relationships in academic are as fluid and breakable as the author might assume.

Most evidence, in fact, says that mentor/mentee realtionships in academia are incredibly immutable. Many people put up with hideous amounts of abuse because their advisor has a thumbs up/thumbs down effect on their career that a Roman emperor would be envious of.

26. cvwright ◴[] No.42481283{7}[source]
This is so ridiculously overstated.

I can think of at least 3-4 very highly respected faculty at top institutions who are short guys. Several more whose voice would never make it in a TV or radio career.

And that’s just in CS systems and security.

replies(1): >>42481561 #
27. bee_rider ◴[] No.42481429{3}[source]
There also seems to be a lot of cheating and/or metric abuse in academia, so it is hard not to over-emphasize this one signal, if it is all you are going to get anyway.
28. ◴[] No.42481482[source]
29. bee_rider ◴[] No.42481484{7}[source]
For a guy at least, you want to be handsome enough but not too handsome (don’t want to be a model, but the handsomest guy in the room), and tall enough that everybody has to look up to you, but not looming height. Then people just sort of assume you get whatever is going on if you nod and say “ok. Right. Good idea.” Which gives you enough time to look it up after the meeting is over.

The physical stats will give you a masters degree, looking it up after gets you the PhD.

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30. gotoeleven ◴[] No.42481497{6}[source]
What do you mean by reactionary conservatism being a factor? "Reactionary conservatism" holds next to zero sway in academia. Do you mean reactionary conservatives are to partially to blame for academic institutional failure because they don't trust those institutions (left wing) product, when they should? Trust and respect are earned so you can only be wrong, dumb, and silly for so long before you lose it. I'm struggling to think of a single sociopolitical idea that has come out of academia recently that has been clearly positive. I can think of many negatives.
31. paulpauper ◴[] No.42481507[source]
Genes play a huge role in individual variability of outcomes, whether it's leanness or obesity, strength, cardio/fitness, academic ability etc.

An example I like to give is, my junior high school had an annual writing competition. The winners were so far ahead in terms of ability ,which was evident when they read their stories aloud , that such ability had to have been divined in some way. There is no way you can be competitive when some have such a huge head start due to genes.

32. ◴[] No.42481561{8}[source]
33. HPsquared ◴[] No.42481579[source]
It's the same in business, and in family matters too.
34. Ar-Curunir ◴[] No.42481684[source]
I think you overstate this effect. At least in CS, it’s better to get a strong letter from a good (but maybe not superstar) researcher than it is to get a lukewarm letter from a Turing award winner.

reputation is a currency in academia, and even people in prestigious positions arent usually going to spend it to get someone mediocre into a top position.

35. 77pt77 ◴[] No.42481699{8}[source]
This is broadly true.

You want to look dominant enough with gravitas

Without that any competence elicits a tremendous response from other people that can easily go all the way to murderous violence.

In a sense, they feel that you are undeserving and that your competence is an affront to the "natural order". And this is in areas where there is some objective metric, which is not the norm.

These are very old biological truths and they will never change at the human timescale, if ever.

36. redserk ◴[] No.42481709[source]
Not really.

While I think there's a lot of higher-priority work that could be done, it's worth taking a moment to step back and look at the process of academia to see if what we have is working, what needs changing, and what improvements -- if any -- are worth investigating.

It's like development retrospectives. Some yield actionable items. Some aren't worthwhile.

37. chriskanan ◴[] No.42481746[source]
Getting into a PhD program requires a lot of preparation soon after entering college. Having a parent with a PhD probably helps a lot to guide their child towards the necessary steps to get into a good program. I was totally clueless and thought just a high GPA would suffice and I had to spend 3 years improving my credentials to get into a PhD program. A lot of my peers had parents who were professors.
replies(1): >>42481783 #
38. 77pt77 ◴[] No.42481783[source]
This is laughable.

It's nepotism and it's enshrined in the recommendation letter system.

The fact that GRE is a joke and that in the USA undergrad, even at the elite level, is usually just a glorified partying program doesn't help either.

replies(1): >>42483811 #
39. kzz102 ◴[] No.42481837[source]
Even if we pretend nepotism doesn't exists, academia is still not a strict meritocracy. In addition to merit, at least two factors play an important role in success, which having a good mentor helps a lot.

1) Tacit knowledge. In many fields, there are important information only accessible from having a mentor like heuristics, insider information, in-lab techniques etc.

2) Investment opportunities. A good adviser is often good at spotting opportunities for their students. It's also common for an academic adviser to share their most valuable opportunities with their students.

It's clear to me that the ideal of meritocracy (talent and hard work leads to success) does not hold in academia, and maybe not anywhere. Having a good mentor gives you extremely valuable information that contribute to success. On the other hand, I am not sure this can be fixed or even needs fixing. I think it's healthy for academics to be partially siloed, so that they can develop their unique approaches and maintain a healthy diversity for the field.

40. dgeiser13 ◴[] No.42482039{3}[source]
Your anecdotal experience doesn't negate the Matthew Effect.
41. SubiculumCode ◴[] No.42482066{7}[source]
Yes yes, and good teeth is associated with better future income. I am a man, and I am 6'4", and that helped, I am sure...but you also overstate the case in a very exaggerated way. There are many factors at play, and no single one is deterministic. Else my glowering face and awkward social communication, and my impoverished upbringing, and undiagnosed ADHD, and the three children I helped raise while in college would have drug me down. I agree that there is an effect, but disagree that it is as strong as you say it is.
42. SubiculumCode ◴[] No.42482123{8}[source]
I once had a student assistant (I was a grad student, she was an undergrad), and she had the three things you aren't ever supposed to have at the same time: extreme beauty, intelligence, and super authentically nice. People wanted to not like her, but couldn't find an excuse. It happens like that sometimes. (and no, I didn't).
43. SJC_Hacker ◴[] No.42483811{3}[source]
Undergrad is definitely not a "glorified partying program", not even at (most) state schools.

Its basically a filter on who can stick with a program for an extended period of time. You know, skills you need if you going to do a 5-7 year PhD.

It certainly doesn't prepare you for research, unless you specifically seek out certain opportunities.

Although ironically, it turns out the 4.0 GPA types may not make the best researchers - at least in experimental science. Better GPA make better grad students up to a certain point - then after a certain point (around 3.5-3.6) there is a negative correlation (except medical school where that doesn't happen). I've heard this from multiple professors.

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44. 77pt77 ◴[] No.42483878{4}[source]
> You know, skills you need if you going to do a 5-7 year PhD.

You do realize that a PhD in Europe is usually 3 years right?

What might be the reason?