←back to thread

277 points love2read | 5 comments | | HN request time: 0.419s | source
Show context
wffurr ◴[] No.42476523[source]
Note that this is done for “existing formally verified C codebases” which is a lot different from typical systems C code which is not formally verified.
replies(8): >>42476623 #>>42477360 #>>42478051 #>>42478440 #>>42478560 #>>42478707 #>>42479358 #>>42479797 #
1. light_hue_1 ◴[] No.42478560[source]
Oh, this has so so many more caveats! It's borderline false advertising.

First of all they never translated any C! At all. Zero lines.

They took code written in F* and modified its C compiler to emit Rust. They never had to deal with any actual C code of any complexity, aside from the most trivial code that might theoretically be emitted by a toy compiler (but wasn't even that!). They just pretended they were dealing with C (or a heavily restricted Mini-C).

Even if we accept this, there are plenty of arbitrary restrictions on the C it can even support in principle:

> If the original C program further relies on x, our translation will error out, and will ask the programmer to fix their source code.

That's saying you want C to already be written in a style that makes the Rust borrow checker happy! They're avoiding the actual hard parts of the problem.

> These rules present simplified versions of what we support. Our implementation features several peephole optimizations ...

If I may translate from the language of academia. "We present beautiful rules in figure 4. But in reality, our implementation relies on a large number of hacks."

But it gets worse!

> For overlap cases that can be distinguished statically (as above), we emit a compile-time error; otherwise, the Rust code will panic at runtime.

The resulting code is not guaranteed to be correct! For example, aliasing in C can cause crashes in the resulting Rust code. See comment at the top of page 10. We're going from a formally verified C program to a "It may crash now" Rust program!? That's nuts!

> We apply our methodology to existing formally verified C codebases, namely, the HACL* cryptographic library ...

This is such a blatant lie that I had to return to it. It's designed to catch an unwary reviewer. We often talk about HACL being in verified C because it gets compiled to that. But it's not a C library, it's written in a totally different language. You cannot confuse the two.

I'm not a reviewer for their paper. But if I was, I would strongly fight for rejection.

The fact that they only handle formally verified C is so astronomically far away from being their main problem.

An honest title would be "Compiling a subset of F* to partially Safe Rust, Partially Formalized"

replies(1): >>42478711 #
2. lou1306 ◴[] No.42478711[source]
> An honest title would be "Compiling a subset of F* to partially Safe Rust, Partially Formalized"

Sadly that is the name of the game in conference publishing. Make a big claim in the title and hope the reviewer does not read the fine print.

> If I may translate from the language of academia. "We present beautiful rules in figure 4. But in reality, our implementation relies on a large number of hacks."

Er, this I can understand. Every conference paper only presents you with a simplified view of the contributions. There is no way to describe every corner case within the page limits of a conference paper (specifically, I bet this was submitted to POPL 2025).

replies(2): >>42478788 #>>42483032 #
3. light_hue_1 ◴[] No.42478788[source]
> Er, this I can understand. Every conference paper only presents you with a simplified view of the contributions.

In my group I don't allow hacks. Most other good papers I can think of don't do that. It takes new students a while to get used to not maximizing performance at all costs. And if a hack must exist, then it's explained, not as a hack, but as part of the method.

Don't you hate it when you implement some beautiful idea from a paper only to discover that it hardly bares any relationship to the actual method that works?

> There is no way to describe every corner case within the page limits of a conference paper (specifically, I bet this was submitted to POPL 2025).

You're probably right. But POPL allows for unlimited pages in an attached appendix. They can and should describe the full method. Particularly if they're going to play the game of saying that they formalized this.

> Sadly that is the name of the game in conference publishing. Make a big claim in the title and hope the reviewer does not read the fine print.

It's a form of namespace squatting. Do the worst job possible to claim a title that you couldn't execute on, so that when people figure out that problem, they will be forced to cite your non-working solution. I loathe this approach to publishing.

We should punish people for doing. Reject for lack of honesty and your paper can't be published in related conference for X years.

replies(1): >>42480853 #
4. lou1306 ◴[] No.42480853{3}[source]
Well in this case (and if it was POPL, but it's a pretty safe bet considering the format and the timing) it looks like reviewers have indeed rejected it. And I completely agree, it is namespace squatting. Sadly every once in a while it does work (and very effectively), so there is little incentive for the community to punish it.

Sorry if my previous comment came off as dismissive, it's just that I'm getting increasingly disillusioned with the state of things in this space.

5. jeltz ◴[] No.42483032[source]
As someone who recently reviewed hubdreds of abstracts for a mid-sized open source conference: our committee would have declined that talk due to the misleading title. Has academia really that low standards?