That's a pretty timely release considering Alexa and the Google assistant devices seem to have plateaued or are on the decline.
replies(1):
And then even simple skills can't understand what I'm asking 60% of the time. The first maybe 2 years after launch it seemed like everything worked pretty good but since then it's been a frustrating decline.
Currently they are relagated to timers and music, and it can't even manage those half the time anymore.
I believe it boils down to two main issues:
- The narrow AI systems used for intent inference have not scaled with the product features.
- Amazon is stuck and can't significantly improve it using general AI due to costs.
The first point is that the speech-to-intent algorithms currently in production are quite basic, likely based on the state of the art from 2013. Initially, there were few features available, so the device was fairly effective at inferring what you wanted from a limited set of possibilities. Over time, Amazon introduced more and more features to choose from, but the devices didn't get any smarter. As a result, mismatches between actual intent and inferred intent became more common, giving the impression that the device is getting dumber. In truth, it’s probably getting somewhat smarter, but not enough to compensate for the increasing complexity over time.
The second point is that, clearly, it would be relatively straightforward to create a much smarter Alexa: simply delegate the intent detection to an LLM. However, Amazon can’t do that. By 2019, there were already over 100 million Alexa devices in circulation, and it’s reasonable to assume that number has at least doubled by now. These devices are likely sold at a low margin, and the service is free. If you start requiring GPUs to process millions of daily requests, you would need an enormous, costly infrastructure, which is probably impossible to justify financially—and perhaps even infeasible given the sheer scale of the product.
My prediction is that Amazon cannot save the product, and it will die a slow death. It will probably keep working for years but will likely be relegated by most users to a "dumb" device capable of little more than setting alarms, timers, and providing weather reports.
If you want Jarvis-like intelligence to control your home automation system, the vision of a local assistant using local AI on an efficient GPU, as presented by HA, is the one with the most chance of succeeding. Beyond the privacy benefits of processing everything locally, the primary reason this approach may become common is that it scales linearly with the installation.
If you had a cloud-based solution using Echo-like devices, the problem is that you’d need to scale your cloud infrastructure as you sell more devices. If the service is good, this could become a major challenge. In contrast, if you sell an expensive box with an integrated GPU that does everything locally, you deploy the infrastructure as you sell the product. This eliminates scaling issues and the risks of growing too fast.
I'm guessing people reflexively down vote because they hate Amazon and it could read like a defense. I hate Amazon too, but emotional voting is unbecoming of HN. If you want emotional voting reddit is available and enormous.
Amazon is one of the richest companies on the planet, with vast datacenters that power large parts of the internet. If they wanted to improve their AI products they certainly have the resources to do so.
I am sure you know this but maybe some don't know that basically only the hot word detection is on device. It needs to be connected to the Internet for basically everything else. It already costs Amazon.com some money to run this infrastructure. What we are asking will cost more and you can't really charge the users more. I personally would definitely not sign up for a paid subscription to use Amazon Alexa.
Here, home assistant is telling you: you can use your own infra (most people won't) or you can use our cloud.
It works because most likely the user base will be rather small and home assistant can get cloud resources as if it was infinite on that scale.
If their product was amazing, and suddenly millions of people wanted to buy the cloud version, they would have a big problem: cloud infrastructure is never infinite at scale. They would be limited by how much compute their cloud provider is able/willing to sell them, rather than how much of that small boxes they could sell, possibly loosing the opportunity to corner the market with a great product.
If you package everything, you don't have that problem (you only have the one to be able to make the product, which I agree is also not small). But in term of energy efficiency, it also does not have to be that bad: the apple silicon line has shown that you can have very efficient hardware with significant AI capabilities, if you design a SOC for that purpose, it can be energy efficient.
Maybe I'm wrong that the approach will get common, but the fact that scaling AI services to millions of users is hard stand.
Local GPU doesn’t make sense for some of the same reasons you list. First, hardware requirements are changing rapidly. Why would I spend say $500 on a local GPU setup when in two years the LLM running on it will slow to a crawl due to limited resources? Probably would make more sense to rent a GPU on the cloud and upgrade as new generations come out.
Amazon has the opposite situation: their hardware and infra is upgraded en masse so different economies. Also while your GPU is idling at 20-30W while you aren’t home they can have 100% utilization of their resources because their GPUs are not limited to one customer at a time. Plus they can always offload the processing by contracting OpenAI or similar. Google is in an even better position to do this. Running a local LLM today doesn’t make a lot of sense, but it probably will at some point in like 10 years. I base this on the fact that the requirements for a device like a voice assistant are limited so at some point the hardware and software will catch up. We saw this with smartphones: you can now go 5 years without upgrading and things still work fine. But that wasn’t the case 10 years ago.
Second, Amazon definitely goofed. They thought people would use the Echos for shopping. They didn’t. Literally the only uses for them are alarms and timers, controlling lights and other smart home devices, and answering trivia questions. That’s it. What other requirements do you have that don’t fall in this category? And the Echos do this stuff incredibly well. They can do complex variations too, including turning off the lights after a timer goes off, scheduling lights, etc. Amazon is basically giving these devices away but the way to pivot this is to release a line of smart devices that connect to the Echos: smart bulbs and switches, smart locks, etc. They do have TVs which you can control with an Echo fairly well (and it is getting better). An ecosystem of smart devices that seamlessly interoperate will dwarf what HA has to offer (and I say this as someone who is firmly on HA’s side). And this is Amazon’s core competency: consumer devices and sales.
If your requirement is that you want Jarvis, it’s not the voice device part of it that you want. You want what it is connected to: a self driving car you can summon, DoorDash you can order by saying “I want a pizza”, a phone line so it can call your insurance company and dispute a claim on your behalf.
Now the last piece here is privacy and it’s a doozy. The only way to solve this for Amazon is to figure out some form of encrypted computation that allows for your voice prompts to be processed without them ever hearing clear voice versions. Mathematically possible, practically not so much. But clearly consumers don’t give a fuck whatsoever about it. They trust Amazon. That’s why there are hundreds of millions of these devices. So in effect while people on HN think they are the target market for these devices, they are clearly the opposite. We aren’t the thought leaders, we are the Luddites. And again I say this as someone who wishes there was a way to avoid the privacy issue, to have more control over my own tech, etc. I run an extensive HA setup but use Echos for the voice control because at least for now they are be best value. I am excited about TFA because it means there might be a better choice soon. But even here a $59 device is going to have a hard time competing with one that routinely go on sale for $19.
I don't blame them, sure there are millions of devices out there, but some people might own five device. So there aren't as many users as there are devices and they aren't making them any money once bought, not like the Kindle.
Frankly I know shockingly few people who uses Siri/Alexa/Google Assistant/Bixby. It's not that voice assistants don't have a use, be it is a much much small use case than initially envisioned and there's no longer the money to found the development, the funds went into blockchain and LLMs. Partly the decline is because it's not as natural an interface as we expected, secondly: to be actually useful, the assistants need access to control things that we may not be comfortable with, or which may pose a liability to the manufacturers.
In addition, it's a moron. I'm not sure it's actually gotten dumber, but in the age of chatgpt, asking google assistant for information is worse than asking my 2nd grader. Maybe it will be able to quote part of a relevant web page, but half the time it screws that up. I just want it to convert my voice to text, submit it to chatgpt or claude, and read the response back to me.
All that said, the audio quality is good and it shows pictures of my kid when idle. If they suddenly disappeared I would replace them.
I’m also the author of an Alexa skill for a music player (basic “transport” control mostly) that i use every day, and it still works the same as it always did.
Occasionally I’ll get some freakout answer or abject failure to reply, but it’s fairly rare. I did notice it was down for a whole weekend once; that’s surely related to staffing or priorities.
Perhaps Echo/Alexa entice users to become Prime members, and they're not meant to be market leaders. We can only speculate as outsiders.
My point is that claiming that a product of one the richest companies on Earth is not as subjectively good as the competition because of financial reasons is far-fetched.
Amazon is a business and frugality is/was a core tenet. Just because they can put Alexa in front of LLMs and use GPU hours to power it doesn't mean that is the best reinvestment of their profits.
The idea of using LLMs for Alexa is so painfully obvious that people all the way from L3 to S Team will have considered it, and Amazon are already doing interesting R&D with genAI so we should assume that it isn't corporate inertia or malaise for why they haven't. The most feasible explanation from the outside is that it is not commercially viable especially "free" versus a subscription model. At least with Apple (and Siri is still painfully lacking) you are paying for it being locked into the Apple ecosystem and paying thousands for their hardware and paying eyewatering premiums for things like storage on the iPhone