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181 points ekiauhce | 4 comments | | HN request time: 0s | source
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ball_of_lint ◴[] No.42232776[source]
This strategy or something like it legitimately wins the challenge.

The challenge (based on expected value) is not to find some compression scheme that will compress 100% or even 50% of files to less than their original size. Instead it's to find any (set of) compression schemes that will compress more than 1/50 = 2% of arbitrary random files to less than their original size. You can construct such a program essentially as they described by asking for a large file size and then searching for a valid decompression program within that file. With standard tools you can make some valid decompression program quite short, which will allow you a reasonable probability that it will appear within a large randomly-generated file.

The cost that you pay for using a compression scheme like this is that where the compression scheme works you'll win some bytes, but in the more common case where it doesn't you'll lose some, even for the simple `cat $1 > original` default decompressor.

Now, a clever contest creator might arbitrarily choose files that win against such decompressors that they can think of, but Mike appears to have not have done so.

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hinkley ◴[] No.42239358[source]
No. You sound as if you’re familiar with the culture but it’s clear that you’re not.

The problem with comp.compression was always that its Eternal September is new people showing up every week claiming they’ve found a universal compression algorithm that compresses everything - the perpetual motion machine of information theory. Having gotten tired of explaining to people who think they’re fighting “dogma” not the laws of the universe, people start trying to find other ways to make them put up or shut up, so they could have some peace and quiet.

Like sending them a file full of RNG output and wait for them to realize this was their teachable moment.

Winning the challenge - without engaging in out of band bullshit (compressor + output should be the giveaway) doesn’t prove you have found a universal compression algorithm. It only proves the RNG is flawed. Which would be very interesting but not break Shannon.

The problem is compressor + file means “no out of band data” to a reasonable person and we have already established we are dealing with unreasonable people.

Not

> My main motivation was to "out-trick the tricker". I thought the chances of me making any money were very remote.

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ttshaw1 ◴[] No.42240067[source]
If they're trying to dissuade "universal compressors" then Mike needed to ask for the algorithm first, and then generate his file. If you tell me "I bet you can't compress this file!" then I can do whatever I want to write some stupid one-off compressor to shave a byte off and take your money.
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1. Dylan16807 ◴[] No.42241201[source]
It's a limited risk. Even if the file is compressible by one byte, it's very unlikely you can figure out how to get a decompressor functioning without plenty of bytes of overhead. And even if that problem disappears, he'd still win 99.6% of the time.

And you can get rid of that risk by requiring 100 bytes of shrink. Just measure the size right.

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2. ball_of_lint ◴[] No.42248513[source]
I think it would be better to require a meaningful percentage (say 1%) of compression rather than an exact count of bytes. Especially while people can ask for arbitrarily large files.
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3. Dylan16807 ◴[] No.42250909[source]
The chance that a randomly generated 1KB file can shrink by 100 bytes is the same as the chance that a randomly generated 100MB file can shrink by 100 bytes.

And that chance is too low to distinguish from zero before the universe dies.

4. hinkley ◴[] No.42258434[source]
As someone else said, if the reward was a million dollars then this becomes a game theory problem.

If you have $100 in disposable income it might be worth the lark if the officiant is uncareful with their chosen text. Though odds are good he pulled it from random.org. That’s where we used to send people.