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203 points tysone | 2 comments | | HN request time: 0.408s | source
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getpost ◴[] No.42199072[source]
If anything you ever say during routine business operations can end up as evidence, clear and honest communication will suffer. The effectiveness of organizations, including the ability to act ethically, will be seriously degraded.

There needs to be some kind of work product doctrine, which protects the privacy of routine business communication. Defining that, while allowing the collection of evidence of criminal activity, won't be easy, but the current state of affairs is unworkable.

I don't wish to facilitate corporate crime, and it's obvious that some of Google's anti-competitive behavior is unlawful. But, I don't see any realistic alternative to what Google is doing in the current legal environment.

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lancesells ◴[] No.42199195[source]
> If anything you ever say during routine business operations can end up as evidence, clear and honest communication will suffer. The effectiveness of organizations, including the ability to act ethically, will be seriously degraded.

> There needs to be some kind of work product doctrine, which protects the privacy of routine business communication.

Wow. This is the opposite of how I feel. Mega-corporations should have their communications logged at a much higher level than a normal business. The things that have come out in court show how they manipulated their customers (advertisers). Regardless of how you feel about advertising a portion of those companies are small mom and pop shops trying to get by. If you have communications that can be used as evidence you're probably in the wrong.

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_DeadFred_ ◴[] No.42199700[source]
Imagine you work as an aerospace engineer. Imagine having to couch/overthink everything your say in communication so that it can't be taken out of context later. You literally have yearly training on how you have to communicate and in hugely impacts how people work because one dumb one off comment in email can financially end the company when an accident occurs.

and that's before you get to the fact that you have to defer how your IT systems work to the lawyers from the big overseas insurance company that covers your company/products. It's a major pain to get them to sign off on collaboration systems because they are such a discovery risk not because you are hidings, but because of how people communicate especially around issues. As far as discovery goes with aerospace, if your engineers anywhere acknowledged any problems, you are hit. How can you have a good product/continuous improvement when you can't acknowledge issues in writing?

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benhurmarcel ◴[] No.42202887[source]
I am exactly in that line of work and that's not my experience. All our written communication is kept basically forever in case of investigation, and yet people don't second guess everything they write.

At the same time I've never seen anyone knowingly defend anything unsafe or illegal anyway.

And my experience is that the "blameless" culture is very present.

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1. _DeadFred_ ◴[] No.42206872[source]
I call BS. You don't think your annual mandated training on speech and communication has in any way impacted discussions? Seriously? Does your company let people from the factory floor reach out (continuous improvement style) via electronic communication for every idea/improvement/thought? If you don't think the insurance company approved annual communication training doesn't change what/how things are reported from the factory floor you should go walk the floor and talk to people.
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2. benhurmarcel ◴[] No.42208768[source]
We don’t have such annual training on communication. We do have annual trainings (including on ethics and safety typically), but none related to speech or an insurance company. The only recurring instruction we receive about speech is to “speak up” if we see anything wrong.

You’re probably thinking of a particular company that I don’t have experience with, but it’s not applicable to the whole industry.