←back to thread

588 points perihelions | 3 comments | | HN request time: 0.64s | source
Show context
nabla9 ◴[] No.42191758[source]
October 2023 there was similar incident where Chinese cargo ship cut Balticonnector cable and EE-S1 cable. Chip named 'Newnew Polar Bear' under Chinese flag and Chinese company Hainan Xin Xin Yang Shipping Co, Ltd. (aka Torgmoll) with CEO named Yelena V. Maksimova, drags anchor in the seabed cutting cables. Chinese investigation claims storm was the reason, but there was no storm, just normal windy autumn weather. The ship just lowered one anchor and dragged it with engines running long time across the seabed until the anchor broke.

These things happen sometimes, ship anchors sometimes damage cables, but not this often and without serious problems in the ship. Russians are attempting plausible deniability.

replies(8): >>42191786 #>>42191808 #>>42191875 #>>42191880 #>>42192160 #>>42197213 #>>42197559 #>>42201843 #
spongebobstoes ◴[] No.42191786[source]
What are some concrete reasons why someone would want to damage these cables? Who benefits?
replies(13): >>42191804 #>>42191926 #>>42191944 #>>42192093 #>>42192712 #>>42192787 #>>42192798 #>>42193528 #>>42193799 #>>42194242 #>>42196876 #>>42197632 #>>42201184 #
mmooss ◴[] No.42196876[source]
Look up 'Grey Zone Conflict': Destroying another country's assets is generally an act of war, but obviously this incident falls short of causing a war. That is the 'grey zone', a prominent feature of current international relations and a major focus of the defense of the democratic world and international order, including in the US military.

The international order is often called the 'US-led rules-based interntional order'. Russia, China, and some others dislike the first element, of course. The second element refers to the legal, rules-based structure (rather than power-based anarchy, which led to the centuries or millennia of war before the 'order' was created post-WWII). Aggressive international warfare is outlawed, for example; if France and Germany have a dispute, there is no question of violence - they use a legal structure to resolve it, which wasn't always true!

Grey zone activities accomplish illegal things without reprocussions. And therefore they also serve the goal of undermining the international order by demonstrating its powerlessness in these situations. In some ways, it's like trolling.

Russia uses grey zone tactics heavily - for example, they used them to capture Crimea (which was before the clear act of war, their 2022 invasion). They use them to run destabilizing 'grey zone' campaigns throughout the world, including directly interfering in elections. The tactics suit Russia in particular because they cannot compete miltarily with the democratic world.

China uses them too, for example using their 'coast guard' and 'civilian' 'fishing boats' to attack (up to a point) and intimidate ships from other countries in the South China Sea. If China used their navy, it would possibly be acts of war. A Chinese coast guard ship shooting water cannon at a fishing boat, though illegal in international waters, isn't going to start a war. 'Civilian' 'fishing' boats from China blockading access to a reef won't either.

Edit:

Before you look at Russia and China and other Grey Zone actors as miscreants, understand that it's just the normal behavior of 'revisionist' powers - those who want to change the current rules. The current rules serve the interests of the 'status quo' powers, who get all self-righteous about 'illegal' activities.

In a more common situation on HN, think of IP outsiders, who break the 'rules' made by major IP holders, such as DMCA or those extending copyright for decades or restricting access to scientific knowledge - the IP holders want the status quo and call violations 'theft' and the outsiders 'criminals', etc. If the US wasn't a status quo power, they'd be doing grey zone things.

(That doesn't at all justify Russia and China's goals of stealing land, oppressing people's freedoms, and solving problems through violence.)

replies(2): >>42197325 #>>42197357 #
exceptione ◴[] No.42197357[source]
> 'US-led rules-based interntional order

You have to look deeper into what kind of government has a problem with an international rule-based order. It is not the democratic countries with trias politica that have a problem with that, but autocratic regimes.

How are you going to ethnically cleanse Uyghurs in a rule based order, or run international crime networks at the level of statehood?

The question is: how are you going to integrate criminal and very powerful clangs in a world that is past the French Revolution? We tried, we failed. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Partnership_for_Peace

Answer is: you can't, unless the common people take ownership over their own countries. Very difficult.

replies(3): >>42198123 #>>42198526 #>>42199457 #
mightyham ◴[] No.42198526[source]
Just a reality check: the United States is currently funding and providing military equipment to Israel, who is carrying out an ethnic cleansing in the Gaza strip. Apparently, democratic governments also have a problem following the rules.
replies(2): >>42200897 #>>42204060 #
1. exceptione ◴[] No.42204060[source]
I am the OP and say: spot on. Also problematic that the Dems do not have the information space to follow their own agenda. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42068340

I went into more detail here about hypocrisy: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42203997

With the far right on the rise, the rules will disappear, because their ideology is "might makes right". That is the mindset of a maffia boss. War and conflict will follow, those who are not powerful enough get trampled.

replies(1): >>42204280 #
2. mightyham ◴[] No.42204280[source]
You seem to be under the assumptions that the rules based international order is a real thing that is being thwarted by Mafia regimes and right wing ideology. First, America is a Mafia regime, under Democrats or Republicans. Many of the biggest Biden donors in 2020 have switched to donating to Trump, not because of ideology, but because they think Trump will be better vessel for their interests. And second, the rules based international order never existed in reality and never will exist because large force welding states will always have disagreements that will sometimes result in violent conflict.
replies(1): >>42204795 #
3. exceptione ◴[] No.42204795[source]
The USA is indeed sliding backwards. State and business interests are getting even more intertwined. There is blindness about that, sure. That might make you feel depressed. Don't turn into a nihilist, as that is nothing more than giving your neck to the butcher.

I also assume you don´t want to know what a non rule based international order will look like. Things are depressing, but can get worse than where we are now.

Society needs to get their act together, but also desperately needs a healthy debate. Corporate media effectively block that, they rather sell the Politeia as entertainment. Still, the onus is on the people.