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116 points wslh | 2 comments | | HN request time: 0s | source
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Simon_ORourke ◴[] No.42162689[source]
Not putting too fine a point on it, but Gandhi's non-violent resistance worked in the India of his time, because the British wanted both the labor and the natural resources, and killing all the former would simply have cost them.

In Gaza and Ukraine right now, the colonial powers simply want the territory, and are largely indifferent or are openly hostile to the continued physical existence of the people who live there.

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wslh ◴[] No.42164064[source]
Please develop your idea about Israel being a colonial power.
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talldayo ◴[] No.42167019[source]
In rough chronological arrangement:

- The Balfour declaration, announced by a colonial power without permission or proofreading from the natives or landowners

- The consequential Arab-Israeli war

- Operation Cast Thy Bread and the introduction of ethnically targeted chemical warfare funded by the government

- The 70 collective civilian casualties from Qibya being raided by IDF

- The 400 collective civilian casualties from Rafah and Khan Yunis being raided by IDF

- Israel's routine violations of the 1949 Armistice Agreements throughout the 1950s

- The Six Day War's extended annexations and territorial reparations

- The passing of the Golan Heights law and the consequential defense of it despite international outcry

- The decades-long occupation of Lebanon and (entirely accidental) formation of Hezbollah

- The Ibrahim al-Maqadma Mosque bombing and other effects of "Dahieh Doctrine" as applied to civilian populations

- The "Blue Line" and subsequent disagreements concerning it crossing territory Israel does not possess

- The continued government support of the illegal and internationally disavowed settlement of northern Israel

Unfortunately, my family has lived too close to this conflict for a comfortable accounting. Israel' history is colonial, from the moment they were issued land by Britain (anyone remember the Raj?), to the modern day where they deploy the IDF to defend illegal settlements. Except for the US and Israel's own objections, those settled areas are unanimously not acknowledged as Israeli territory by the UN and EU.

Therefore, Israel is a colonial power. You can argue that they're one of the good colonizers if you want, but you'll need some pretty convincing evidence to justify 70 years of nationalism-fueled bloodshed concerning territories that were never part of their nation in the first place. Most Americans with internet access have started to realize that they can only support this occupation because it inherently necessitates Israel relying on American imported weapons. It's becoming a second "Pakistan situation" very quickly, and politicians are starting to realize it.

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mr_toad ◴[] No.42179112[source]
> The Balfour declaration, announced by a colonial power without permission or proofreading from the natives or landowners

Right off the bat you’re implying Israel has no right to exist…

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talldayo ◴[] No.42179188[source]
No, I'm highlighting the part of Mandatory Palestine where it quite literally started out as a British colonial entity.

I personally believe Israel has a right to exist. There are two fundamental claims that lie unaddressed and compromise the legitimacy of the borders Israel chooses to recognize for themselves:

1) The originally misrepresented Balfour declaration that promised land Britain had no right to administrate

2) The continued unrepentant settlement of the Golan Heights in spite of multinational, worldwide objection to the action

The first issue does not make Israel inherently any more colonial than America, but does obviously start a blood feud with the native population. The second issue does make Israel inherently colonial and contradicts the idea that Zionism is not predicated on expansionist policy.

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1. mr_toad ◴[] No.42179601{3}[source]
You argue that Israel’s colonial occupations in the West Bank are illegitimate, but the establishment of Israel itself, while colonial, is not illegitimate? That seems inconsistent. It seems a very common position for people to begrudge that Israel has a right to exist, but not really.

Secondly, if the argument that the “native” population (which of course has always lived there, absolutely no migration) has superior rights than an immigrant population was advanced in Europe in order to get rid of said immigrants, then we don’t need to imagine what that would be called, it was a whole thing.

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2. ◴[] No.42182567[source]