←back to thread

271 points nradov | 6 comments | | HN request time: 0.288s | source | bottom
Show context
jaysonelliot ◴[] No.42172799[source]
Despite the headline CBS gave the article, it seems the problem is not with happiness, but with the seductive appeal of materialism and the effects of exposing one culture to another.

Social comparison theory is the idea that our satisfaction with what we have isn't an objective measure, but is actually based on what we see other people have. Young people generally seem to have an innate desire to leave their hometowns and seek out what else might be waiting out there for them. When you add in globalization and media influence exposing them to what looks like a "better" life with more things, it's not surprising that they've seen ~9% of young people leave Bhutan.

The other question is, what will happen if Bhutan does increase their financial wealth as well as their happiness? Will they then see a net influx of people through immigration, looking for the lifestyle Bhutan promises? And will those new people be able to maintain the culture Bhutan has cultivated?

It sounds like the concept of Gross National Happiness is a successful one, on its own, but it brings new challenges that couldn't have been forseen originally. That doesn't mean they can't solve them without giving up their core values.

replies(7): >>42172887 #>>42173063 #>>42173254 #>>42173619 #>>42173660 #>>42173728 #>>42179386 #
cardanome ◴[] No.42173063[source]
Nah, the issue is the one that many developing countries suffer from: brain drain.

The best people leave the country because the can earn orders of magnitude more money in the developed world. This is why countries like the US keep being so successful while developing countries stay poor.

It is just the rational best decision for a young people to try their luck abroad and earn more money that they could ever dream of in their home country. Why shouldn't they? Idealism? There is nothing wrong with striving for a better life, it is what moves humanity forward.

Offering great and free education will always backfire for developing nations.

The solution is to either keep the population ignorant, hamstringing their education so they are less useful abroad and implementing a strict censorship regime so they don't get "corrupted" by the West or well force them to stay.

We saw that all play out in the Soviet Block. There is a good reason there was a wall.

I think the fairest solution is to NOT make education free but instant offer a deal of having to stay in the country and work for X-years in the profession one has been trained in by the state. Once they get older and settle down they are less likely to leave anyway.

Being a developing country just sucks. There is a reason most never break the cycle of poverty.

replies(22): >>42173148 #>>42173163 #>>42173280 #>>42173286 #>>42173298 #>>42173323 #>>42173483 #>>42173712 #>>42174306 #>>42175177 #>>42175245 #>>42175256 #>>42175422 #>>42175581 #>>42176184 #>>42176296 #>>42176930 #>>42177713 #>>42177808 #>>42177921 #>>42178010 #>>42181454 #
FredPret ◴[] No.42173280[source]
I'm part of the brain drain from my developing country-of-birth.

It's more than just money. To me, the money is a symptom of the real issue.

The real issue for me was the culture that exists in my birthplace. It just isn't welcoming to nerds or rich people. It doesn't lend itself to ever becoming developed.

When I compare and contrast to the New World: I find a much more welcoming culture that encourages personal progress. And not only are nerds welcome, but all sorts of productive folk. It's absolutely no surprise to me that the US is outperforming the rest of the world economically to a comical degree.

replies(7): >>42173586 #>>42173695 #>>42173745 #>>42173842 #>>42175404 #>>42175551 #>>42176878 #
dfkasdfksdf ◴[] No.42173695[source]
This is the more correct answer. It's also answers why developed nations became developed and undeveloped nations did not. The west advanced just fine without "brain drain" in the centuries prior.

That being said, I wouldn't use the US as some bastion of progress. Technically, we haven't progressed much since the 70s? 80s? outside of GDP going up, but that's just a number on a chart. Most of us today could go back to the 70s and live not much different than now (compared to the any earlier decade). It's mostly a side effect of being the world's reserve currency.

replies(6): >>42174560 #>>42175780 #>>42176006 #>>42176351 #>>42176432 #>>42176612 #
cardanome ◴[] No.42174560[source]
> The west advanced just fine without "brain drain" in the centuries prior.

Centuries prior they had a global slave trade going on. The wealth of the West is build on colonialism.

Culture just reflects the underlying material conditions that people live in. There is nothing inherently superior about Western culture. Wealth is cumulative and first mover advantages are strong. And if anyone threatens the current hegemony, there is always the use of force.

But yes, you are right there has been a stagnation since the 80s and things are slowly changing ins favor of countries like China and India.

replies(5): >>42175350 #>>42175467 #>>42175890 #>>42176425 #>>42177778 #
aliasxneo ◴[] No.42175890[source]
> There is nothing inherently superior about Western culture.

I'm not necessarily intending to contradict this outright, but after having just spent a summer reading through the history of the collectivist cultures in Russia/China during the last century, all I could think of is how lucky I was not to be born into that.

So, sure, nothing "inherently" superior, but certainly comparatively superior, in my opinion.

replies(3): >>42176052 #>>42176619 #>>42176808 #
myworkinisgood ◴[] No.42176619[source]
Russia did have some problems, but China suffered badly due to colonialism.
replies(1): >>42176766 #
nradov ◴[] No.42176766[source]
Well that begs the question of why was China so weak that they could be easily colonized and exploited by the UK, Japan, and other foreign powers? At the time they didn't lack for population, natural resources, technology, ports, etc. Was their weakness caused by culture or something else? In other words, why were they the colonized instead of the colonizers?

I'm not trying to make excuses for the crimes against humanity committed in China by the colonial powers. But we need to look deeper into the root causes of historical events.

replies(1): >>42179435 #
1. hmm37 ◴[] No.42179435[source]
To say they didn't lack in technology is just crazy. By the late 18th century early 19th century around the time of the first opium war, the technological differences was quite sound, such that militarily there was no way China cannons e.g. matched anything the West had, allowing UK's navy to bombard China from practically anywhere without any consequences. In fact even into the early 20th century, during the siege of Xi'an during the 1930s, they were still using ladders, etc. to try the breach the walls like they were doing a millennium ago.
replies(2): >>42179764 #>>42179911 #
2. FredPret ◴[] No.42179764[source]
I think nradov's question stands. Why was this the case?
replies(3): >>42181182 #>>42181399 #>>42191424 #
3. nradov ◴[] No.42179911[source]
Look deeper. At one point China was far more technologically advanced than the UK (or rather its predecessor states). Why did China fall so far behind by 1839? Was it culture or some other factor?
4. eagleislandsong ◴[] No.42181182[source]
Unfortunately this is not a question that can be easily addressed in a single comment on a forum, nor in a blog post. I know my answer sounds like a cop-out, but if you are willing to invest the time and energy, I'd highly recommend reading Ian Morris' magnum opus Why the West Rules -- For Now: The Patterns of History, and What They Reveal About the Future.
5. Karrot_Kream ◴[] No.42181399[source]
This is a good question with a very complicated answer. But to give a short but inaccurate answer: the older a polity becomes the worse it gets at adapting to change due to its internal politics becoming more complicated. We're seeing that in the US right now with the last three very polarizing elections.
6. hmm37 ◴[] No.42191424[source]
There's many reasons. But one of the biggest reasons is probably simply hubris. That is Europe was importing as much technology, philosophy, resources and know how from around the world, leading up to the 18th-19th century. In fact a lot of the philosophers were to some degree familiar with some of the basics of Chinese philosophy, with e.g. David Hume, more than likely reading Chinese Buddhist philosophy (which is why many Buddhist experts tell beginners to read some of Hume's work to understand Buddhist philosophy). The fact that the Chinese did not believe in a god like the Christian God, etc. and yet were an advance civilization did help intellectuals believe that there was an alternative to e.g. scholastic philosophy and to the Christian religion, leading up to the 19th century ideas that there simply was no God (Nietzsche, etc.). It wasn't until around the 19th century when the West began to develop racial theories that they were somehow superior to everyone else, and therefore had nothing to learn from the old world.

The Chinese at some point went around the world during the Ming dynasty, sailing to Africa, etc. Found out that everyone was pretty much uncivilized in terms of technology, etc. and thought there was nothing actually out there. So later on they thought it was simply a waste of government funds to go on such expeditions, especially when everyone seemed to want to reach China instead to conduct in trade rather than the other way around. Therefore the Ming became extremely inward looking, etc. And that carried on into the Qing dynasty. But prior to that in the Song, etc. China was pretty advance. Another issue is that voyages, etc. could not be monetized. Merchants who took risks to explore the world, etc. made 100x more back on their investments, especially after the fall of the Byzantine empire to Ottomans which halted the overland silk road, forcing Europeans to find another route by sea to Asia for items they needed. The Chinese couldn't find such profits at least not in the 14th century.

Obviously this is all very simplistic, and you could easily write 1000s of pages on this topic. But to a large degree today's China is Europe of the past, where they feel they can learn from everywhere, but the West, not so much. Seems as if the two have traded places, where the West is hubristic. Thinking everyone else is pretty much stupid, and uncivilized. Although maybe mentalities of both is starting to shift again.