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473 points Bostonian | 13 comments | | HN request time: 0s | source | bottom
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refurb ◴[] No.42178748[source]
Yikes, quite the scathing article and example of a the politicization of science.

“Trust the science” has always bothered me for two reasons: 1) science is frequently not black and white and anyone who has done hard science research knows there are plenty of competing opinions among scientists and 2) while scientific facts are facts, we still need to decide on how to act on those facts and that decision making process is most certainly political and subjective in nature.

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1. tekla ◴[] No.42179047[source]
Anyone who unironically says “Trust the science” automatically tells me that they are probably not an informed person.

I trust that most research is done in good faith and at least some of it is useful. Saying 'Trust the science' might as well be saying 'Trust in God'

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2. davorak ◴[] No.42179432[source]
> I trust that most research is done in good faith and at least some of it is useful. Saying 'Trust the science' might as well be saying 'Trust in God'

Hopefully this is hyperbole. Any faith I have is separate from, for example, if I cancer, I am going to trust the science on the next steps of treatment.

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3. thaiaiabdidn ◴[] No.42183793[source]
> Saying 'Trust the science' might as well be saying 'Trust in God'

In the past, many cultures had priests doing most of the science as well.

Ultimately it all boils down to trust. The common man doesn’t have time nor intellect to evaluate “the science”. When scientists display obvious bias, they lose trust, since they claim to be impartial. It’d be better if they didn’t claim to be impartial.

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4. ryanjshaw ◴[] No.42184382[source]
The other issue is that science has nothing to say about livelihoods and personal freedom - there's no "Lockdown Science". Those were political decisions, ie. opinions disguised as science to shutdown dissent.
5. exoverito ◴[] No.42184773[source]
Medicine is extremely complex and medical errors are the 4th leading cause of death in the US. The science on the next steps of treatment is often incomplete, variable, and dependent on the practitioners' experience. You shouldn't simply trust your doctor, but instead get a second opinion at minimum, and probably a third and fourth if you're able. It's best to triangulate on the problem, searching out varying perspectives from subject matter experts, listening to how they disagree, in order to better understand reality.
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6. davorak ◴[] No.42184891{3}[source]
I would describe what you said here as a procedure for how to gather and apply the science/knowledge you are going to use for your treatment. So trusting the science, just more details on how to go about doing that.

> Medicine is extremely complex and medical errors are the 4th leading cause of death in the US.

Do you have the source for this? I have never seen it on the list of leading causes of death. For example:

https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/databriefs/db492-tables.pdf#4

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7. nradov ◴[] No.42184899[source]
It's better that scientists be clear about context when communicating. There's nothing wrong with a single person being both a scientist and a political advocate. But they ought to be clear which hat they're wearing at any given time. Science is a process that can never give definitive guidance on public policy.
8. jbstjohn ◴[] No.42184942[source]
The point is more that "the science" is too broad and vague and uncertain. The science for cancer might be that the currently best known treatment acknowledged in country X is to follow a particular treatment process. That changes across time and countries. And often the studies have assumptions baked in. So there isn't a blind belief in "the science"
9. nradov ◴[] No.42185049{4}[source]
Preventable medical errors are one of the leading causes of morbidity and mortality. This was well documented in the Institute of Medicine report "To Err Is Human" in 2000.

https://nap.nationalacademies.org/catalog/9728/to-err-is-hum...

Since then there have been positive system changes in terms of things like quantitative care quality measures and use of checklists. But it's still a huge problem. Whether it's the 4th leading cause of death is unclear, it depends on how you analyze the data and what assumptions you make.

https://doi.org/10.1377/hlthaff.2018.0738

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10. Symmetry ◴[] No.42185511[source]
Generally you should trust science on matters of "is". But on matters of "ought" science only bears indirectly.
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11. knowitnone ◴[] No.42185640[source]
then you should just trust in God and forget about science
12. slices ◴[] No.42186117[source]
ideally, science would be the best available information on "is". When the science is i.e. funded by a tobacco company and regarding the safety of tobacco, we should be skeptical. How much of current science falls in a similar class?
13. davorak ◴[] No.42187412{5}[source]
Still reading digging in. In particular one reference in the second link[1]

Still not clear to me how they are generating the numbers for putting it at 3rd or 4th. I might have to read the paper rather than listen the author interview in my link above.

That said 98,000 dead from medical error in 2000, from the first link, would put it at 9th in the list that I linked:

https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/databriefs/db492-tables.pdf#4

from 2020. So even with that lower estimate it would put it in the top ten.

The definition of a death caused by medical error from [1] seem too board from the likely simplified explanation at least:

"Medical error has been defined as an unintended act (either of omission or commission) or one that does not achieve its intended outcome,"

That "or does not achieve its intended outcome" seems like it would count cases I would not want in a statistic like this. For example surgery to remove cancer to save the patients life did not achieve the intended outcome of saving the patients life so it is counted as death via medical error.

Probably have to look at the full paper to see how they applied the standard, but the pdf is not free on the site I linked. I might come back later and look for a free copy or another source.

[1] https://www.bmj.com/content/353/bmj.i2139/