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473 points Bostonian | 5 comments | | HN request time: 0.672s | source
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refurb ◴[] No.42178748[source]
Yikes, quite the scathing article and example of a the politicization of science.

“Trust the science” has always bothered me for two reasons: 1) science is frequently not black and white and anyone who has done hard science research knows there are plenty of competing opinions among scientists and 2) while scientific facts are facts, we still need to decide on how to act on those facts and that decision making process is most certainly political and subjective in nature.

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rayiner ◴[] No.42178829[source]
The second point is critical. Relevant testimony from the former head of the NIH during the pandemic, Francis Collins: https://www.bladenjournal.com/opinion/72679/confession-of-a-...

> “If you’re a public-health person and you’re trying to make a decision, you have this very narrow view of what the right decision is.” “So you attach infinite value to stopping the disease and saving a life. You attach zero value to whether this actually totally disrupts people’s lives, ruins the economy, and has many kids kept out of school in a way that they never quite recover from.”

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1. dekhn ◴[] No.42178960[source]
I'm pretty happy Collins came to that conclusion and learned from it.

I don't expect public health officials to have a utilitarian function that maximizes global health considering second order effects. This should have been stated more clearly at the beginning of the epidemic.

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2. gotoeleven ◴[] No.42184719[source]
Some people were saying we should consider second order effects from the very beginning. I believe the term used for these people was "grandma killers."
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3. Levitz ◴[] No.42185303[source]
>I don't expect public health officials to have a utilitarian function that maximizes global health considering second order effects.

Why not? It sounds to me that is the ideal scenario. If I go to the doctor I want them to maximize for health, it's up to me to make health concessions

In the same way, we have an entire political class who should be able to look at the health of the population and gauge which measures are worth taking and which aren't, no?

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4. dekhn ◴[] No.42186420[source]
Ideally, i guess, in some mental models, we'd love to have some sort of super powerful system that can compute a global utility function that considers second (and third, etc) order effects accurately enough to plan out actions that maximize the global utility (without violating ethical norms) until we are immortal and have unlimited energy resources and ability to manipulate matter.

In practice, we instead have centers that focus on first-order effects and who advocate for their position (from an authority based on scientific knowledge, and preparation for emergencies) which are then evaluated and mixed with other centers by political leaders to incorporate the best attempt at considering second and further effects.

Everybody has a different utilitarian model and we don't have enough data or algorithms to predict second or third order effects (we usually fall back on "wisdom" from prior experience).

5. immibis ◴[] No.42200040[source]
Those were the same people causing the second order effects. And the second order effects they caused killed my grandma. So I don't see the problem with referring to them as such.