Like any other discussion of this kind[1] I think this one will go nowhere because 1) the question doesn't have a black and white answer, it's a sliding scale. 2) almost no one is giving examples of what they mean; if they were, they could find that they agree with the person they are replying to. And 3) most people will discard the experiences of people they disagree with "you didn't even try! maybe the problem is you!", and this is easy because this is the internet and the other person can be (is probably?) making it up.
[1]https://www.joelonsoftware.com/2009/09/23/the-duct-tape-prog...