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How Japanese black companies oppress workers (2014)

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178 points rawgabbit | 15 comments | 18 Nov 24 04:02 UTC | HN request time: 0s | source | bottom
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infotainment ◴[18 Nov 24 04:44 UTC] No.42169771[source]▶
> "I can't quit the job. If I say I'm going to quit, I'll be threatened that I will have to pay damages for quitting."

Interestingly, this is actually possible under Japanese law/legal precedent. If an employee, for example, decides to put in notice and then half-ass their job until their departure date, a company could actually sue the employee and win.

Other Japan-labor-law fun fact: if you are a contract worker, it is literally illegal for you to quit prior to your contract expiry date. Hope you like that job you signed onto!

Obligatory disclaimer: IANAL

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jandrewrogers ◴[18 Nov 24 05:04 UTC] No.42169851[source]▶
The majority of developed countries have subtle versions of this. I was naive about this before I worked outside the US and saw the practical impact. The chains go both ways and have real downsides.

Having seen the perverse incentives this creates and the various ways in which it can be abused, I have come to the conclusion that the American “at-will” employment model is actually a good thing and benefits workers. No one should discount the value of having the power to tell your employer to fuck off at a moment’s notice with no practical repercussions. No one should be required to stay in an abusive relationship a moment longer than they wish to.

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dopfk09320k ◴[18 Nov 24 05:39 UTC] No.42169989[source]▶
>No one should discount the value of having the power to tell your employer to fuck off at a moment’s notice with no practical repercussions.

I think you are confusing "it is possible" with "it is common". Never heard of people in Japan get sued for quitting, even with shady English teaching centers. But definitely seen companies do them for scare tactics though.

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1. jandrewrogers ◴[18 Nov 24 05:43 UTC] No.42170008[source]▶
FWIW, I don’t have any experience in Japan, I have no idea what the nuances are like there. I have a lot of experience in Europe, which echoed some of the themes raised.
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2. dopfk09320k ◴[18 Nov 24 05:56 UTC] No.42170078[source]▶
Do you have examples ? I have never heard European people being sued for quitting either. The opposite of at-will employment is not that you can't quit. Just that employers can't suddenly fire you without repercussions.
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3. apelapan ◴[18 Nov 24 07:12 UTC] No.42170431[source]▶
The termination period in a Swedish employment contract certainly applies in both directions.

If you have three months notice period in your contract, your employer could sue for loss of income if you don't honour that notice period.

It usually doesn't happen that way, because it is a waste of everyone's time and money. But, if some employer feels the need to set an example the option is there.

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4. erinnh ◴[18 Nov 24 07:14 UTC] No.42170437[source]▶
It is possible to be sued for damages in Germany if you quit and don't come back to work during your notice period.

Its not very likely and hard to prove damages by the employer, but possible.

Nothing really stopping you from simply half-assing your job during your notice period, though.

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5. adrianN ◴[18 Nov 24 07:26 UTC] No.42170471{3}[source]▶
It is my understanding that you haven’t quit until your notice period is over, you just have given notice. As such it is not surprising to me that you still have to do the job or face some consequences; you signed a contract after all. You would sue your employer too if they fired you and then immediately stopped paying you.
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6. dopfk09320k ◴[18 Nov 24 07:46 UTC] No.42170558{3}[source]▶
That is certainly supprising to me. I assume most people just deal with it by showing up but silent quitting ?
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7. ◴[18 Nov 24 07:50 UTC] No.42170571{3}[source]▶
8. walthamstow ◴[18 Nov 24 07:51 UTC] No.42170579[source]▶
In the UK, an employee can't legally walk off the job without notice but it does happen albeit rarely. Nobody ever sues them. The only reason people don't do it more often is so they have a reference for their next employment.

The more common way to do this these days is to feign an illness like stress and get signed off work, paid, by the doctor, then quit later.

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9. johnisgood ◴[18 Nov 24 08:25 UTC] No.42170720{4}[source]▶
Depends, in Eastern Europe "suing" does not happen often, in fact, it is quite rare, for both employers and employees. I see how people in the US are threatening to sue all the time, but that is not the case around here. It would take too much time and money and usually is not worth it.
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10. Ekaros ◴[18 Nov 24 08:39 UTC] No.42170762{3}[source]▶
In Finland I believe you need very vindictive company. And even then any amount of money you can get out of it likely is not worth the work hours spend.
11. adrianN ◴[18 Nov 24 10:44 UTC] No.42171269{5}[source]▶
I don’t know statistics but here in Germany many people have insurance that pays for attorneys in case of conflicts related to employment and would make use of it.
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12. harry_ord ◴[18 Nov 24 10:45 UTC] No.42171272{3}[source]▶
The notice period is kinda odd. I've known people who want to leave immediately and haven't had a lot of trouble doing so because the relationship with their employer has soured that much.

Paid by the doctor? I think sick pay comes from the employer initially and later statutory sick pay(state).

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13. walthamstow ◴[18 Nov 24 11:46 UTC] No.42171594{4}[source]▶
You're right, the doctor thing is just bad grammar or sentence structure on my part
14. apelapan ◴[18 Nov 24 16:24 UTC] No.42173931{4}[source]▶
If there is bad blood leading up to the termination, then I guess so. I haven't witnessed that more than once or twice in my career.

Most people make an extra effort to end on a positive note, both with colleagues and managers. Of course, effectively off-boarding yourself means having progressively less and less to do as time goes by... So in that sense you sort of quiet quit.

15. ◴[19 Nov 24 15:54 UTC] No.42184834{6}[source]▶