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Stop making me memorize the borrow checker

(erikmcclure.com)
177 points signa11 | 5 comments | 16 Nov 24 23:29 UTC | HN request time: 0s | source
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FridgeSeal ◴[17 Nov 24 01:06 UTC] No.42161073[source]▶
Can't say I agree, or that this matches my experience of writing Rust.

I don't memorise how it works, I've just learnt what it rejects and why, and this in turn becomes clear as to why it's rejected that. Very rarely do I find myself going "oh bother, now I suddenly need to `Rc` or `Arc` this, I suspect because I've just gotten into the habit of suspecting when I anticipate things will run afoul and structuring things from the get-go to avoid that. Admittedly, I'm not writing absurdly low-level code.

I wonder if the authors grounding C++ is making life harder for them? Often when I've had to teach people Rust, getting them to stop writing {C/C#/Java}-but-in-Rust is the first stop on the trail to "stop fighting and actually enjoy the language". Every language has its idioms, just because you can, doesn't mean you should.

replies(2): >>42161104 #>>42161413 #
s17n ◴[17 Nov 24 02:11 UTC] No.42161413[source]▶
If you aren't writing low level code, why not use a GC language?
replies(1): >>42162710 #
FridgeSeal ◴[17 Nov 24 08:02 UTC] No.42162710[source]▶
Great type system, great performance, great packages, great tooling, nice high-level API’s that produce low overhead code, I’m most familiar in Rust now.

I’ve had more than enough unpleasant experiences with write-runs-breaks-at-runtime style languages. I don’t like writing them, I hate having to support them in prod as they give me constant-persistent-stress. I hate what idiomatic C# is, and how much ceremony there is to read and write it. Java is worse. Go’s type system is too anaemic for my tastes. Haskell is nice, but gets a bit academic and lacks some day-to-day niceties. Kotlin is supposed to be nice, but again, we’re getting maybe 50% of Rust type system features, and you’re basically just piggybacking on Java/JVM which I hated dealing with previously. IDK what else that leaves in the mainstream. I used to play around with Nim, and that was quite nice though.

replies(1): >>42162884 #
neonsunset ◴[17 Nov 24 08:46 UTC] No.42162884{3}[source]▶
F# :)

Expression-oriented, HM type inference with gradual typing, faster than other FP languages, can even reach for low-level bits, or write extra glue code in C# which is more pleasant at low-level imperative code.

Not sure what exactly you refer to as idiomatic C#. If it has too much ceremony chances are it’s anything but!

replies(1): >>42163451 #
1. FridgeSeal ◴[17 Nov 24 11:09 UTC] No.42163451{4}[source]▶
Yeah I’ve used F# before! It was pretty good, some solid features and nice experience. It just falls into a bit of weird place IMO? You have to rely on writing/using C# to fill any holes, and I really dislike that language/ecosystem, and why split between 2 lands when I can just get the same HM type system, similar-enough principles, better perf and no MS taint.

Edit: I do love the ML style syntax though, Haskell, F#, Dhall are awesome, I wish it were more readily accepted.

replies(1): >>42164656 #
2. neonsunset ◴[17 Nov 24 15:27 UTC] No.42164656[source]▶
The hatred of .NET (and C#) is unfortunate, irrational and unwarranted. I ended up unfortunately resorting to just thinking less of engineers that have it, because they can’t update their priors (“it was slightly inconvenient 8 years ago so it must be bad today surely”) and distinguish between Microsoft’s other products and policies and .NET itself.
replies(1): >>42165130 #
3. kstrauser ◴[17 Nov 24 16:45 UTC] No.42165130[source]▶
I believe that’s shortsighted. I’ve been adjacent to any number of Microsoft rugpulls over the years (Visual FoxPro.NET any day now, promise!). Their are enough non-MS languages that C#’s never tempted me. I don’t think it’s a bad language and don’t think poorly of you for using it, but I feel much better about the long-term prospects of Rust and wouldn’t likely build a new business on C# today.
replies(1): >>42165709 #
4. neonsunset ◴[17 Nov 24 18:05 UTC] No.42165709{3}[source]▶
It's not. It is shortsighted to blindingly hate thing X over Y instead of considering circumstances and understanding how big corporations work, or understanding the nature of the project you make use of (after all, the entirety of .NET is MIT) and just how much worse most alternatives are. There is a wealth of mainstream languages that are decently usable, which I wouldn't touch with a ten-foot pole as a main choice still because they carry a significant downgrade in one or another area, that .NET does not compromise on.
replies(1): >>42169898 #
5. FridgeSeal ◴[18 Nov 24 05:16 UTC] No.42169898{4}[source]▶
I’m not blindly disliking anything.

I recognise C# as useful, but _personally _ dislike it because of the sprawling, OOP-heavy, ceremony-heavy core it encourages you to write. Half my dev friends write C# for their day jobs, half my workplaces have had me dealing with it. It’s not an opinion borne from unfamiliarity or knee jerk reaction; my distaste for MS is just the cherry on top.