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175 points PaulHoule | 2 comments | | HN request time: 0s | source
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dijit ◴[] No.42159330[source]
I always found it really frustrating that a "zero tolerance" policy to bullying seemed to disproportionately affect people who eventually fight back.

I would guess it's a combination of "nobody sees the first hit" (since your attention is elsewhere, of course) and that bullies get quite good at testing boundaries and thus know how to avoid detection.

But, really, it's truly frustrating that as I child I was bullied relentlessly, and when I finally took my parents advice and stood my ground, I was expelled from school (due to zero tolerance). Those bullies continued to torment some other kids, of course.

This is far from an uncommon situation, over the years I've heard many more scenarios like this.

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trod1234 ◴[] No.42161468[source]
> I would guess its a combination of "nobody sees the first hit".

No, it is done that way by purposeful intent, though you wouldn't recognize it as such without having studied and having a certain level of exposure to how torture works in reality (really dark stuff).

Bullying is a combination of physical and mental coercion. During Mao, the Chinese government discovered a number of ways to torture people to the point where they adopt false ideologies (effectively breaking them) for thought reform purposes.

These techniques are often embedded today in the structures used by teachers and they have predictable results. If the exposure is ongoing, people break, either through disassociation (helplessness/suicide), or psychosis seeking annihilation externally (albeit a semi-lucid psychosis capable of planning).

This is torture for thought reform, and Active shooters seem to fall into the latter bucket quite prominently. Unfortunately, Technology has made the ephemeral steps needed to do this (previously physically), possible (remotely).

Joost Meerloo, and Robert Lifton wrote about these structures and observations professionally covering the developments of the subject matter from WW2 through the Korean Conflict (1944-1960). They are well established experts.

Academia has a long problematic history of supporting things related to marxism. The most common telltale sign is that of circular structures (hegelian dialectic, or the abuse of the contrast principle). These are used to create convincing lies/deceits, critical theory (cultural-marxism/ i.e. the woke), originated from Marxists/Communists/Socialists (whose structure is almost objectively identical).

There are people in these systems who in action promote communism, while claiming otherwise. Whether they are lying, or are just delusional its hard to say but as I mentioned the telltale sign is circular structures. The first thing you need for rationalism is a common shared definition (what is called identity in philosophy). Then you can hold accountability following a system of logic. Without it, there is no accountability, and you can just as easily claim the exact opposite of the situation (Falsely), with no way to prove otherwise.

If you want an introduction to this not mired in a quagmire of deceit, I'd suggest Mises on Socialism (circa 1930s), it provides a rational introduction to the objective structure of such, without needing a lot of discernment to combat deceitful circular narratives inevitably found in other material.

Getting back to bullying, and torture, the gist is, all that is needed to coerce is components of isolation, lack of agency (on the part of the subject), and increasing cognitive dissonance. Its only then a matter of time and exposure, and certain structures allow meeting this criteria simultaneously for multiple different groups at once.

One such structure is called the hot potato, where a student is called out in front of class to answer a question. Usually fact questions are mixed in with thought reform opinions, and the student is not informed to mount a reliable defense. The subject when called is anxious or nervous, disapproval of their peers may result in bullying, lack of opportunity, or social stigma. This is determined and reflected by the approval or disapproval of the teacher in answering the question or correcting the question. Any disagreement is a reflection of disapproval. The more disagreement, the more disapproval.

There are always those seeking approval in the peer group, where disapproval results in those members bullying and harassment, or shunning, to seek approval, albeit arbitrarily with no explicit direction. This almost always happens outside class.

This structure induces both subject and peer group to participate in the dynamics, and in truth both are victims, since the harassment/needs of the peer group require them to act in ways that are consistent with the teachers approval (consistency principle). It doesn't matter if the teacher condemns such behavior verbally.

The idea of a struggle session (Maoist), is that you make life intolerable arbitrarily until you meet some unstated arbitrary measure. The subject is gaslit to believe its their fault, if only you would confess or agree (which invokes consistency). Sometimes there is no measure and its unending.

The route of effect is the same way we develop our identity and culture through communication within a community. Reflected Appraisal. As you are isolated, those you see most you begin to trust, they inadvertently affect you more until full conformity and adoption.

You generally must be in a vulnerable state either naturally (developmentally), or induced (through torture), to adopt behaviors in this way. The latter is effectively involuntary hypnotic suggestion which is induced.

These structures distort reflected appraisal, and use other sophisticated psychological biases to indoctrinate for purpose (avoiding critical thought/perception).

Unless you know what to look for, you don't even notice it being used against you to manipulate you. It is not of the flesh but over flesh. The seen and unseen. Tolkien often took inspiration from the bible, and Amazon's Rings of power are masterfully done in the way it depicts this subject matter.

If you've ever seen the movie Focus, what is described with choosing the player and number for the gambling con is truthful, and you can do far more than just that narrow example. Much of the foundational subject matter for these things was originally taught in a classical education (pre-prussian model of education), under Rhetoric. Science has allowed us to further probe what was known back then, effectively breaking perception, which reminds me of the Tower of Babel story.

If you would like a crash course in the blind spots, Robert Cialdini wrote a book, though he refers to them as levers of influence, unfortunately he doesn't touch on reflected appraisal in depth. The book is called Influence. Its been recognized in the US by members of the state department.

Many of these structural elements have been repackaged so as to obscure the fact that these originated from torture.

The Octalysis framework for game development for example hits most of these indirectly (albeit perfectly), but this is not an isolated example. Variations of the same structures are everywhere from business process, to CSR doom loops, basically anywhere you want to impose cost to coerce people against a specific behavior; these are used.

These situations and outcomes are by design, they are subtle and malign evil people often pretend, or rather believe that they are good. Know an evil person by the willful blindness they show to the consequences of their action, know an evil act by the destructive outcome that follows.

Know sloth by its more modern name, complacency (also the banality of evil), which turns towards radical evil.

If you would understand how these things happen, a thorough study of corruption, systems (and failures of such), history, and ruin are needed. Few get this education with modern curricula. Classical Curricula follow the greeks, (Trivium/Quadrivium). The rise and fall of the Roman Republic to Imperial Rome is also quite illustrative, and Social Contract Theory is a must (to understand what changes have caused civilized society to fail). The latter include Locke, Kant, Rosseau, Thomas Paine, and a few others.

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1. rustcleaner ◴[] No.42161849[source]
I wish to know more about this, all of it. Operant conditioning (B. F. Skinner) and programming people has always been an interest of mine.
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2. trod1234 ◴[] No.42163008[source]
I'd suggest you check out the books I mentioned.

The case studies written in Robert Lifton's book, "Thought Reform, and the Psychology of Totalism", have many details of the elements, taken from first-hand accounts (PoWs), back in the 50s. Many of these people never recovered.

Joost Meerloo, Rape of the Mind has an overview of the process, observations, and some early diagnostic criteria (Schizophrenia/delusion is often found as a characteristic in such early cases).

More recently, Social Engineering in the context of movie character design touches on another aspect where distorted reflected appraisal is used to often impart gender or cultural maladaptive behaviors, or destructively interfere in belief systems, such as religion, or groups (the nuclear family), under a guise of inclusion.

Pixar and Disney are two companies which often touch on this subject matter, Apple too, and there have been whistleblowers from the first, who have come out and talked about what happens behind close doors.

Some examples, association of the handsome man always being the evil villain (targeting teen women), the religious or trusted community figure or leader acting and looking crazy and goofy with no one paying attention, the hero being so weak they need to be defended by their romantic interests (targeting teen men), or their romantic interests emasculating them in the guise of defending them (targeting women), normalizing maladaptive behavior that only causes friction between genders, and other cohorts. Similar targeting for the nuclear family, where mimicking behavior (something kids naturally do) becomes malign.

I remember reading some studies where language processing was examined. I can't quite remember where it was from now but basically Children read differently from adults, where descriptive language is modified indirectly. Children take the literal (first simple meaning and stick to it), whereas adults get the correct context after gymnastics.

Basically, with enough natural/destructive friction, people isolate themselves to limit exposure which makes the messaging all the more effective for the majority of the population, as long as you hit those three things I previously mentioned.

As torture is an involuntarily induced hypnotic state, you can find a good deal of more modern material under hypnotism (bypassing the critical factor/attention, and hypnotic reversals which cause irrational emotional response against something when they believe they notice the manipulation.

The TV Show Hannibal, used similar means to induce and associate delight in the audience with the colorfully posed victims, of the serial killer, which was sickening on so many levels.

Igor Ledochowski has several programs, Mindbending Language, and Conversational Hypnosis which take this to SOTA back in 2000.

NLP and Cult deprogramming has been an active area of research.

There are many areas where these things intersect, some relying on distorting communication as that is usually the simplest way to distort reflected appraisal, others to shape sentiment.

Karma bots on social media as an example of the latter (where karma dictates whether you are squelched or not by the majority).

The large tech companies basically used their government funding and constructed echo chambers for all of us individually. Inconsistency in reflected appraisal tends to drive us crazy (as humans), but also leaves us in a state where we are easily manipulated (Joost Meerloo touches on this robotization that inevitably is inflicted on the individual within totalitarian societies).

Google had a leak of their selfish ledger awhile back for a concrete example of the sophistication of the propaganda. While, horrifically flawed, its still convincing if you didn't know better (which is a result of inoculation).

Quite a lot of this research originated in Russia/China, but has continued globally under Irregular Warfare/Political Warfare subject matter. If you have a high discernment, going to the source material and understanding what is meant can provide useful insights, as well as the history of the Jesuits (which Marx/Engels seemed to have stolen somewhat heavily from).

Psycho-politick was interesting as well, albeit older. There is a ebook available from USMC Press on Political Warfare (published 2020), albeit doesn't touch as much as I'd like on the nuts and bolts.

Most of this has until just recently, been understood by those in the know, but publicly discounted/nullified. The history is quite interesting on its own, albeit hard to piece together given the clandestine nature of it all. A lot of this falls under regime-change strategy, and military doctrine of divide and conquer.

If you can segment people into roughly three groups, one unresponsive, one psychotic, and one rational. The rational cohort is too busy offsetting the fires created by the psychotic, and only a small group is needed (in theory) following a four stage process. Demoralization, Destabilization, Crisis, and Re-normalization, based in psychology.

Hopefully that provides some useful springboards for your research. Knowing how it happens, can provide some useful defensive measures, albeit one must be careful about anchoring on stimuli, since people who use some of the more sophisticated aspects often will notice the lack of effect, and adjust and will often try to invert, or induce an irrational reaction, which can bypass simple measures, and you can't remain hyper-vigilant all the time without detrimental effects (jumping as shadows). They'll paint you as a crazy person after goading you to destroy your social credibility.