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355 points jchanimal | 3 comments | | HN request time: 0.621s | source
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uoaei ◴[] No.42158729[source]
I follow the lead author, Stacy McGaugh, via his blog where he posts discussions and musings about the latest research into the dark matter vs MOND debate: https://tritonstation.com/new-blog-page/

His arguments are very convincing and relatively clear. I am not an astrophysicist but I have two degrees in physics and have always found the dark matter theory to be lacking -- in absence of any evidence of causation whatsoever, dark matter can only be described trivially as "where we would put matter if we could to make our theory of gravity make sense," which is totally backwards from a basic scientific perspective.

Predictions based on modern MOND postulates are shown to be more and more accurate as our observational instruments continue to improve in sensitivity.

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antognini ◴[] No.42159032[source]
> where we would put matter if we could to make our theory of gravity make sense

Dark matter behaves in a fundamentally different way from baryonic matter. We can constrain the total amount of matter in the universe (both dark and baryonic) from the observed abundances of baryogenesis. But dark matter has a different effect on the relative amplitudes of peaks in the CMB.

As far as I can tell, MOND has never really had any success outside of modeling galaxy rotation curves.

The skepticism I've seen towards dark matter vs. MOND has always been strange to me. Dark matter doesn't really require much in the way of new physics --- there's just a new particle to add to the standard model. But most MOND theories violate Lorentz invariance which is a vastly more radical departure from standard physics. (And in my mind, the more sophisticated MOND theories that maintain Lorentz invariance like TeVeS are really a theory of dark matter dressed up in the language of MOND.)

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MattPalmer1086 ◴[] No.42159086[source]
There are more successful predictions than just rotation curves. For example, see:

http://astroweb.case.edu/ssm/mond/LCDMmondtesttable.html

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antognini ◴[] No.42159140[source]
These successful predictions are all generally variants on modeling galactic dynamics, though. The trouble is that galaxies and galaxy clusters are very messy places, so it's hard to make sure you've incorporated all the relevant physics.

By contrast something like baryon acoustic oscillations are very simple to model, so you can be quite confident that you've incorporated all the relevant processes. And in that regime LCDM performs beautifully and MOND completely fails. So it's reasonable to suspect that in more complicated environments the problem is that we're not modeling the systems correctly rather than that there's new physics going on.

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1. MattPalmer1086 ◴[] No.42159292[source]
There are other predictions MOND makes. For example, it predicts higher collision velocities than LCDM, for example, see:

https://ieeexplore.ieee.org/document/8193356

And, of course, it predicted that the early universe would have bigger and more structured galaxies (which is what the posted article is about).

Dark matter has a slew of problems of its own; it's not the case that LCDM is problem free, despite good success in some areas.

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2. kelseyfrog ◴[] No.42159676[source]
MOND doesn't cover the existence of CBM, distribution of galaxies, non-metallic abundance - things all covered by LCDM.

What MOND has going for it is that galactic rotation curves are readily consumed by popsci readers and the story of the "little guy" vs the scientific establishment is an easily available frame story popsci authors can sell clicks for.

The proportion of lay people who think MOND could be true greatly outnumbers the proportion of MOND researchers and doesn't reflect the veracity of the theory.

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3. MattPalmer1086 ◴[] No.42160156[source]
MOND is not a cosmological theory unlike LCDM, and it isn't relativistic. So we should not expect it to cover the range of things that LCDM tries to.

It's just a tweak to Newtonian gravity, which surprisingly matches observation very well, and has accurately predicted quite a few things in the regime it operates in, before they were observed.

The fact it works so well in the areas it does apply to is the reason that science hasn't given up on it yet (regardless of what pop science or lay people think).