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355 points jchanimal | 3 comments | | HN request time: 0.599s | source
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uoaei ◴[] No.42158729[source]
I follow the lead author, Stacy McGaugh, via his blog where he posts discussions and musings about the latest research into the dark matter vs MOND debate: https://tritonstation.com/new-blog-page/

His arguments are very convincing and relatively clear. I am not an astrophysicist but I have two degrees in physics and have always found the dark matter theory to be lacking -- in absence of any evidence of causation whatsoever, dark matter can only be described trivially as "where we would put matter if we could to make our theory of gravity make sense," which is totally backwards from a basic scientific perspective.

Predictions based on modern MOND postulates are shown to be more and more accurate as our observational instruments continue to improve in sensitivity.

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griffzhowl ◴[] No.42158981[source]
> which is totally backwards from a basic scientific perspective

This is not right, because if we have a situation where our theories and observations don't cohere, it's not given whether the theory requires modification or we're missing something in our observations (or both). A classical illustration is the orbit of Uranus being observed in the nineteenth century to be contrary to the predictions of Newtonian theory. Calculations were made assuming the truth of the Newtonian theory and that we were missing something in our observations - the position of Neptune was predicted and it was subsequently discovered.

On the other hand, the orbit of Mercury diverged from the prediction of Newton's theory. Again, a previously unobserved planet closer to the sun was postulated as being responsible, but in this case it really did require a modification to the theory of gravity: general relativity, which accurately predicted the 43 arcseconds per century of perihelion precession by which Mercury's orbit diverges from Newtonian predicitions.

GR has obviously made many other predictions, such as the gravitational bending of light, black holes, and gravitational waves, which have been vindicated.

So there's obviously a problem of the theory and observations not cohering, but whether the solution is a modification of the theory or a new form of matter is not clear in advance, and the latter is not unreasonable and certainly it's not unscientific to make as a hypothesis, to see where it leads.

The difficulty is in coming up with a theoretical framework that retains all the successful predictions of GR while also accounting for the galactic rotation curves.

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1. bbor ◴[] No.42159094[source]
Well put, thanks for sharing! Never saw it phrased in such a clear narrative. As a novice, it seems like there's one big difference between those anecdotes and the current situation, though: sample size. Sure, if we were observing Andromeda spinning too slowly I'd be open to our instruments not capturing some massive objects/clouds, but we're actively observing, what, ~1E5-6 galaxies? In the case of a missing planet there were accidents of history/solar system makeup that led to our otherwise solid frameworks missing a key piece of information. But that clearly couldn't happen millions of times; whatever explains the inconsistencies we're seeing has to be a fundamental misunderstanding.

Once we've arrived at this point, we can compare the two theoretical re-workings on their own terms: one is that we're glossing over some important detail of how gravitational relations in spacetime work, and the other is that we're failing to observe some new class of matter. I mean, right? There's no way this conundrum will be solved by "whoops turns out there was more plain ol' dust than we thought" at this point, right?

In those terms, I feel parsimony clearly favors one possibility over the other. Every hypothesis is worth exploring (I mean, QM and GR are dumb as hell, yet nonetheless turned out to be correct), but when funding is on the line it's also not out of line to favor one explanation explicitly. That's already happening anyway, just in the other direction.

But also I'm just some kid who's awed and grateful to be living in times of such profound mystery and discovery. Could be totally off base -- I barely passed physics I!

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2. necovek ◴[] No.42159162[source]
> ...turned out to be correct

What we have learned so far is that our theories and models are only correct up to our ability to precisely observe and measure.

In that sense, Newtonian physics is still very much correct under a very wide set of circumstances, and as such amazingly useful.

GR improves on that (adds precision) on what would be extreme cases for NP, but it is likely as correct as Newtonian laws are: up to a point.

All this to say that "correct" is not the right term to use: many of the theories are simultaneously "correct" with sufficient constraints and a particular error range. What matters more is if they are useful in predicting behaviour, and that's where I like using "correct" instead (as above).

3. griffzhowl ◴[] No.42160556[source]
Thanks. I'm also no expert - I'm just learning general relativity - but that's also my rough understanding: either there needs to be a modification of the theory, or there's a new form of matter. It might seem more parsimonious to modify the theory, but then how do you do that in a way that retains all the successful predictions of GR while explaining the recalcitrant observations? That's the hard part.

It seems at the moment that the minimal and most elegant adjustment to the worldview required is to postulate the new form of matter. But I think it's safe to say it's a genuine problem in our knowledge: we don't know how to solve it