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175 points PaulHoule | 13 comments | | HN request time: 1.632s | source | bottom
1. 082349872349872 ◴[] No.42158929[source]
1984 (1948), a book written by an author who hadn't had the happiest* boarding school experience, can be read as a story in which we skip the fast-forward (part I) to get to the story-within-a-story (part II) which asks a cliffhanger question:

> deeper than this lies the original motive, the never-questioned instinct that first led to the seizure of power and brought doublethink, the Thought Police, continuous warfare, and all the other necessary paraphernalia into existence afterwards. This motive really consists...

which is answered by O'Brien (in part III):

> ...How does a man assert his power over another, Winston?" Winston thought. "By making him suffer," he said.

* Such, Such Were the Joys (1952)

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2. djoldman ◴[] No.42158975[source]
https://www.orwell.ru/library/essays/joys/english/e_joys
3. javajosh ◴[] No.42159130[source]
Love the book but I always thought this needed a little bit more explanation. It seems in our world people seek power for many reasons and only a small minority seek it simply to make people suffer. For example, people seek power to increase their own safety and pleasure. The suffering of others is incidental to their goals. In addition, since suffering is universal and requires no human actor to inflict. It seems rather like a huge waste of effort. I think it's better to read O'Brien's statement as something more specific to the world of 1984 and Big brother rather than something general that applies to all power seeking. We don't really learn that much about the workings of the inner party and the kind of propaganda that they are subjected to or subject each other to, and this might be evidence of what that looks like.
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4. 77pt77 ◴[] No.42159243[source]
> By making him suffer

Nietzsche had written extensively about this way before.

Nowadays we know that humans (and other animals) bully because they derive immense health benefits from being the aggressor.

Those benefits are trivial to detect many decades after the fact.

Until those benefits are offset by a hefty price to pay, nothing will change.

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5. hiatus ◴[] No.42159320[source]
> Nowadays we know that humans (and other animals) bully because they derive immense health benefits from being the aggressor

Which health benefits are those?

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6. iwontberude ◴[] No.42159442{3}[source]
I assume by poisoning those around you with cortisol, one becomes (comparitively speaking) less of a fuck up. It’s the Tanya Harding (‘s boyfriend) approach to success.
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7. rawgabbit ◴[] No.42159807[source]
I believe the keyword here is "assert". As people have free will, you can either motivate/entice/lead them or you can demotivate/punish/control them or a combination of the two.

"Assert" implies O'Brien has already chosen the punitive route. In other words, O'Brien is not revealing some deep secret of human power dynamics. Instead, O'Brien is giving a self congratulatory self justifying explanation for his wrong doing.

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8. tw202411161608 ◴[] No.42159857[source]
> It seems in our world people seek power for many reasons and only a small minority seek it simply to make people suffer.

Are you sure? Your assessment is probably specific to regional experience; I'd probably have agreed with you at another point in my life. It's not something I was familiar with before living here, and it's not the same kind of (hierarchical/organizational/bureaucratic) power alluded to in the quoted passage, but in Austin I'm acutely aware that a not-insignificant subset of "normal" people here seem to be driven to seek enough power in whatever position they occupy that will allow them to make others miserable. I see it in people here who are nasty to me for no reason, and I see it in people here who are nice to me but nasty to others for no reason.

It's a shame that "the cruelty is the point" is so tightly bound to politics, because it captures in a few words a perfect description of the phenomenon.

9. Terr_ ◴[] No.42160123[source]
> Instead, O'Brien is giving a self congratulatory self justifying explanation for his wrong doing.

It is at the minimum of very different kind of self-justification than what you'd usually expect from a villain.

When Winston answers with the the expected "for your own good" narrative, O'Brien rejects it and punishes him for it:

> The Party seeks power entirely for its own sake. We are not interested in the good of others; we are interested solely in power. Not wealth or luxury or long life or happiness: only power, pure power. What pure power means you will understand presently. We are different from all the oligarchies of the past, in that we know what we are doing.

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10. 77pt77 ◴[] No.42161592{4}[source]
Their cortisol levels increase but yours decrease.

It's not merely

> You're now comparatively better because others are now worse.

You are really better in absolute terms at their expense.

These effects last decades!

Anyone that tells you otherwise is lying to you.

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11. rawgabbit ◴[] No.42167902{3}[source]
The first rule of power is those in power want to stay in power. The second rule is that they will only voluntarily give up power if they can keep their ill gotten gains.
12. iwontberude ◴[] No.42177717{5}[source]
I appreciate the italics but usually people making bold claims without sufficient sources are lying to me.
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13. 77pt77 ◴[] No.42208723{6}[source]
https://www.pnas.org/doi/10.1073/pnas.1323641111

> Here, we show that victims suffer from greater increases in low-grade systemic inflammation from childhood to young adulthood than are seen in others. In contrast, bullies showed lower increases in inflammation into adulthood compared with those uninvolved in bullying

> Conclusion

>Being bullied is known to have adverse effects on psychological and social development, but it is increasingly being recast as similar to family maltreatment in its potential to disrupt both mental and physical functioning across the lifespan (1, 2). In contrast, bullies experience few downsides and reap biological advantages of increased social status. Social status and disruptions to one’s status may play a central role in physical health functioning through effects on chronic low-grade inflammation, and these effects may persist for decades. Our findings suggest that this mechanism may be a key target for efforts to reduce risk for a bevy of age-related diseases and to promote optimal psychological and physical health functioning.

The literature about this is immense. There are even a couple of studies with monozygotic twins which are notoriously difficult to do.