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Yggdrasil Network

(yggdrasil-network.github.io)
322 points BSDobelix | 2 comments | 16 Nov 24 10:58 UTC | HN request time: 0s | source
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hahajk ◴[16 Nov 24 14:57 UTC] No.42156739[source]▶
Ok, so as I understand it, yggdrasil and cjdns are virtual P2P networks that offer the normal layer 3 routing services, but built on top of the existing internet. So they still require ISPs and internet backbones, etc.

Are there any projects attempting to build a worldwide P2P network that can replace the IP layer? Like a mesh network that can operate without verizon, cisco routers, etc? I know of some mesh network technologies aimed at small disconnected networks but nothing consumer-facing and supporting anything more than a few thousand nodes.

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ajsnigrutin ◴[16 Nov 24 15:39 UTC] No.42156926[source]▶
Why would you want to remove the IP layer?

Or are you thinking about IP layer, just not on the "internet", but on a separate network? If this, then how do you suggest connecting people together? Mesh becomes innefficient due to mesh routing at larger sizes and sooner or later you just reinvent "your own internet", but not worldwide, because you don't have the resources to actually connect the whole world together.

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hahajk ◴[16 Nov 24 16:58 UTC] No.42157411[source]▶
In order to access the internet you are required to enter into a contract with a corporate entity. That's not because the internet is "theirs" (like Facebook's servers and systems are Meta's), but because the network layer was design with the assumption that companies would do the work of setting up ISPs, core routers, peering agreements, etc.

I'd like to see a P2P protocol that doesn't assume this but instead is designed to be completely decentralized, and anyone running the protocol can join. This protocol would provide addressing routing like our current IP protocol, and TCP/UDP etc can run on top of it. Would this be a separate "internet" or could it have gateways to the proper internet? Preferably the latter. There are obvious technical challenges with routing, addressing, mobility, all in a decentralized way but are they truly impossible?

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1. toast0 ◴[16 Nov 24 19:23 UTC] No.42158541{3}[source]▶
What you've described sounds a lot like running an AS with BGP. Yes, there's centralized allocation of ASNs and IP ranges. Otherwise, the whole thing is pretty decentralized, but you've got to figure out how to connect to peers and transit providers.

Many peers will connect without a real contract, especially if you're both present on a peering fabric, but transit usually needs a contract because transit isn't mutually beneficial.

For some sort of overlay/alternative network, reliable transit seems highly likely to have a cost too. Probably not a contracted cost while it's experimental; and maybe optimistically, much lower than today's costs for IP transit, but still there would be a cost. Actually, IP transit costs are much lower today than years ago, but last mile transport costs are more important to your bill and running wires requires skilled labor and specific capital equipment, so it remains expensive; bandwidth capacity of wiring increases over time, but you still need one connection per home for best service; although wireless seems poised to reduce costs for good enough service in favorable conditions.

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2. ajsnigrutin ◴[17 Nov 24 14:55 UTC] No.42164487[source]▶
> What you've described sounds a lot like running an AS with BGP. Yes, there's centralized allocation of ASNs and IP ranges. Otherwise, the whole thing is pretty decentralized, but you've got to figure out how to connect to peers and transit providers.

And even this is a thing of papers and agreements, not a protocol issue.

Anyone can set any AS number and claim any IP range they want, the protocol doesn't care. If you're setting up "your own internet", you can make a new list of ASNs ad distribute IP ranges however you wish. But yeah.. transit (="cables") is expensive.