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Please stop the coding challenges

(blackentropy.bearblog.dev)
261 points CrazyEmi | 8 comments | 15 Nov 24 15:32 UTC | HN request time: 0s | source | bottom
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CharlieDigital ◴[15 Nov 24 16:21 UTC] No.42148313[source]▶
A small anecdote.

A partner of a friend quit their job earlier this year. They then took 4-6 weeks to prepare for each interview with Big Tech companies (4-6 weeks for Meta, 4-6 weeks for Stripe, etc.). Along the way, they also took random interviews just to practice and build muscle memory. They would grind leetcode several hours a day after researching which questions were likely to be encountered at each Big Tech.

This paid off and they accepted an offer for L6/staff at a MAANG.

Talked to them this week (haven't even started the new role) and they've already forgotten the details of most of what was practiced. They said that the hardest part was studying for the system design portion because they did not have experience with system design...but now made staff eng. at a MAANG. IRL, this individual is a good but not exceptional engineer having worked with them on a small project.

Wild; absolutely wild and I feel like explains a lot of the boom and bust hiring cycles. When I watch some of the system design interview prep videos, it's just a script. You'll go into the call and all you need to do is largely follow the script. It doesn't matter if you've actually designed similar or more complex systems; the point of the system design interview is apparently "do you know the script"?

Watch these two back to back at 2x speed and marvel at how much of this is executed like a script:

- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4_qu1F9BXow

- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_K-eupuDVEc

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paxys ◴[15 Nov 24 16:24 UTC] No.42148339[source]▶
Sounds like the system worked exactly as intended then. A seemingly smart person got a good job. What's the problem with this story exactly?
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1. cess11 ◴[15 Nov 24 16:37 UTC] No.42148466[source]▶
Apparently they expect people to work for free for more than a month to learn material they then won't use.

In my mind that's a rather nasty practice.

Not that I'm complaining. I'm happy to pick up people that are good at computers but wouldn't be able to pass that hurdle, and probably wouldn't hire anyone that has.

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2. HPsquared ◴[15 Nov 24 18:02 UTC] No.42149290[source]▶
It's very mild compared to postgraduate education. Or getting a degree in general. That's years!
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3. cess11 ◴[15 Nov 24 18:49 UTC] No.42149698[source]▶
Sure. Why is it a worthwhile comparison?
4. TeMPOraL ◴[15 Nov 24 19:11 UTC] No.42149887[source]▶
If you're getting a PhD solely for a job in marginally related part of industry, that's on you. The experience is useful if you're doing it for right reasons, instead of as a proxy ritual to boost your CV. There are more efficient ways to do the latter.
5. unoti ◴[15 Nov 24 21:52 UTC] No.42151588[source]▶
> Not that I'm complaining. I'm happy to pick up people that are good at computers but wouldn't be able to pass that hurdle, and probably wouldn't hire anyone that has.

You're looking for people who feel like they can't be bothered to learn some of the science and fundamentals of their craft? And you'd actively oppose hiring people who have the determination to go the extra mile? You'd actually discriminate against people who know how to use basic data structures and algorithms, and have that enriched landscape of knowledge to apply to problems that might come up?

Fortunately for you, there are lots of these people available to hire who felt like they are too good to put in the work.

I'm not saying that the data structures and algorithms knowledge is needed to do most software engineering jobs on a daily basis. But for lots of jobs, hiring people with a demonstrated willingness to dive in deep and learn things that aren't necessarily easy or fun actually can be a very good thing, because a lot of engineering problems require a similarly difficult dive into some aspect of specialized domain knowledge.

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6. cess11 ◴[16 Nov 24 10:51 UTC] No.42155754[source]▶
You're speaking from a position of great privilege where putting in a month or two of free labour doesn't impact your life much, maybe because you have money, or because you don't have kids.

Whether someone demonstrates a willingness to dive in deep and learn things I catch with an entirely different technique, like putting them into contact with a new programming language.

Filtering out people with experience from "FAANG" will likely get rid of some people that think they are "too good to put in the work", because they have that line on their resumes. And those I've met were absolutely insufferable and incompetent.

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7. unoti ◴[16 Nov 24 19:20 UTC] No.42158518{3}[source]▶
Actually I put in that work myself, while working, and while raising kids. It took me a lot longer than a month or two. It took a ridiculous, embarrassing amount of time.

> And those I've met were absolutely insufferable and incompetent.

I understand this last part, and annoying and insufferable people absolutely do exist. But consider that you may be generalizing and discriminating against a pretty big pool of people using a small sample size, and give some of those people a chance-- as long as they're not being insufferable and are treating you the way you want to be treated. Those people exist in FAANGs too.

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8. cess11 ◴[17 Nov 24 05:43 UTC] No.42162242{4}[source]▶
No way. If someone has worked in one of those companies and tells me about it, then they're tainted by it, similar to how they would be from having worked at Raytheon or whatever.

If they have the sense to try and hide their "FAANG" background I might consider them.