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Thomas E. Kurtz has died

(computerhistory.org)
613 points 1986 | 5 comments | 14 Nov 24 22:12 UTC | HN request time: 0.22s | source
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smarks ◴[15 Nov 24 00:24 UTC] No.42142776[source]▶
Like several others here, my first programming language was BASIC. For this we owe Kurtz a debt of gratitude.

I know Dijkstra is famous for having said that we're mentally mutilated beyond hope of regeneration, but you know, I kinda think we didn't turn out half bad.

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microtherion ◴[15 Nov 24 01:00 UTC] No.42142995[source]▶
I know literally zero working programmers who learned programming the way Dijkstra thought it should be taught — not even Dijkstra himself, as Donald Knuth once gently pointed out.

Practically everybody in my generation started off with BASIC. On the other hand, at some point (when?), this practice stopped, and the newer generations turned out fine starting out with more civilized languages.

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1. nonameiguess ◴[15 Nov 24 09:31 UTC] No.42145272[source]▶
To be fair to Dijkstra, he was writing about how he believed university students should be taught. Two years before that cruelty paper was published, I was getting my first exposure ever to computer programming when my parents bought a Commodore 64 that came with a BASIC manual that showed how to make a Pong clone. I was 6 years old.

There's maybe an analogy to riding a bike. If you're aspiring to compete in a grand tour, you probably want power meters, lactate threshold and VO2 max tests in a lab, training that is principled and somewhat scientific in the way it builds toward a goal. If you're 6, your parents just put you on the seat and push you until your balance gets good enough that you can take the training wheels off.

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2. lars_francke ◴[15 Nov 24 10:07 UTC] No.42145468[source]▶
Total aside: Training wheels are a thing I remember from my youth but today (at least here) they are barely used at all anymore.

I'm still used to the phrase (taking the training wheels off) but I'm fairly certain my kids will grow up not using it.

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3. rswail ◴[15 Nov 24 11:24 UTC] No.42145918[source]▶
The sort of pushbikes for littler kids lets them learn balance and steering before also having to learn how to pedal and brake.

So half the learning happens on those pushbikes before they move to real bikes.

4. microtherion ◴[15 Nov 24 23:29 UTC] No.42152494[source]▶
Yes, Dijkstra was writing about the education of university students. I don't know whether he ever wrote anything about elementary school (or earlier) computer education, but I doubt he'd have approved of it, let alone of a hands on approach.
5. CRConrad ◴[17 Nov 24 01:14 UTC] No.42161118[source]▶
> If you're 6, your parents just put you on the seat and push you until your balance gets good enough that you can take the training wheels off.

Which can take a very long time, because you have training wheels to begin with. If you're about to teach a kid how to ride a bicycle, it's far better to do without them. And the pedals too; learning how to use those is a huge distraction from learning to find and hold your balance.

There are special “kick bikes” for tiny tots to propel by kicking off the ground. And some of those can later be converted into “normal” bikes by attaching a chain drive, but... Feels kludgy, and is usually rather expensive.

If you can find an ordinary bike where you can get the saddle low enough for your kid to reach the ground with their feet, just remove the pedals and let them use that as a “kick bike”. If you can find a (gentle!) slope to practice on, you'll be able to replace the pedals in a matter of a few weeks at most, or probably days.