←back to thread

Interview with gwern

(www.dwarkeshpatel.com)
308 points synthmeat | 3 comments | 14 Nov 24 08:56 UTC | HN request time: 0.709s | source
Show context
YeGoblynQueenne ◴[14 Nov 24 13:22 UTC] No.42135916[source]▶
This will come across as vituperative and I guess it is a bit but I've interacted with Gwern on this forum and the interaction that has stuck to me is in this thread, where Gwern mistakes a^nb^n as a regular (but not context-free) language (and calls my comment "not even wrong"):

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21559620

Again I'm sorry for the negativity, but already at the time Gwern was held up by a certain, large, section of the community as an important influencer in AI. For me that's just a great example of how basically the vast majority of AI influencers (who vie for influence on social media, rather than research) are basically clueless about AI and CS and only have second-hand knowledge, which I guess they're good at organising and popularising, but not more than that. It's easy to be a cheer leader for the mainstream view on AI. The hard part is finding, and following, unique directions.

With apologies again for the negative slant of the comment.

replies(10): >>42136055 #>>42136148 #>>42136538 #>>42136759 #>>42137041 #>>42137215 #>>42137274 #>>42137284 #>>42137350 #>>42137636 #
dilap ◴[14 Nov 24 15:01 UTC] No.42136759[source]▶
Regarding your linked comment, my takeaway is that the very theoretical task of being able to recognize an infinite language isn't very relevent to the non-formal, intuitive idea of "intelligence"

Transformers can easily intellectually understand a^nb^n, even though they couldn't recognize whether an arbitrarily long string is a member of the language -- a restriction humans share!, since eventually a human, too, would lose track of the count, for a long enough string.

replies(2): >>42136846 #>>42136925 #
YeGoblynQueenne ◴[14 Nov 24 15:06 UTC] No.42136846[source]▶
I don't know what "intellectually understand" means in the context of Transformers. My older comment was about the ability of neural nets to learn automata from examples, a standard measure of the learning ability of a machine learning system. I link to a paper below where Transformers and RNNs are compared on their ability to learn automata along the entire Chomsky hierarchy and as other work has also shown, they don't do that well (although there are some surprising surprises).

>> Regarding your linked comment, my takeaway is that the very theoretical task of being able to recognize an infinite language isn't very relevent to the non-formal, intuitive idea of "intelligence"

That depends on who you ask. My view is that automata are relevant to computation and that's why we study them in computer science. If we were biologists, we would study beetles. The question is whether computation , as we understand it on the basis of computer science, has anything to do with intelligence. I think it does, but that it's not the whole shebang. There is a long debate on that in AI and the cognitive sciences and the jury is still out, despite what many of the people working on LLMs seem to believe.

replies(2): >>42137144 #>>42137319 #
1. dilap ◴[14 Nov 24 15:43 UTC] No.42137319[source]▶
By intellectually understand, I just mean you can ask Claude or ChatGPT or whatever, "how can I recognize if a string is in a^n b^n? what is the language being described?" and it can easily tell you; if you were giving it an exam, it would pass.

(Of course, maybe you could argue that's a famous example in its training set and it's just regurgitating, but then you could try making modifications, asking other questions, etc, and the LLM would continue to respond sensibly. So to me it seems to understand...)

Or going back to the original Hofstadter article, "simple tests show that [machine translation is] a long way from real understanding"; I tried rerunning the first two of these simple tests today w/ Claude 3.5 Sonnet (new), and it absolutely nails them. So it seems to understand the text quite well.

Regarding computation and understanding: I just though it was interesting that you presented a true fact about the computational limitations of NNs, which could easily/naturally/temptingingly -- yet incorrectly (I think!) -- be extended into a statement about the limitations of understanding of NNs (whatever understanding means -- no technical definition that I know of, but still, it does mean something, right?).

replies(1): >>42137974 #
2. YeGoblynQueenne ◴[14 Nov 24 16:41 UTC] No.42137974[source]▶
>> (Of course, maybe you could argue that's a famous example in its training set and it's just regurgitating, but then you could try making modifications, asking other questions, etc, and the LLM would continue to respond sensibly. So to me it seems to understand...)

Yes, well, that's the big confounder that has to be overcome by any claim of understanding (or reasoning etc) by LLMs, isn't it? They've seen so much stuff in training that it's very hard to know what they're simply reproducing from their corpus and what not. My opinion is that LLMs are statistical models of text and we can expect them to learn the surface statistical regularities of text in their corpus, which can be very powerful, but that's all. I don't see how they can learn "understanding" from text. The null hypothesis should be that they can't and, Sagan-like, we should expect to see extraordinary evidence before accepting they can. I do.

>> Regarding computation and understanding: I just though it was interesting that you presented a true fact about the computational limitations of NNs, which could easily/naturally/temptingingly -- yet incorrectly (I think!) -- be extended into a statement about the limitations of understanding of NNs (whatever understanding means -- no technical definition that I know of, but still, it does mean something, right?).

For humans it means something- because understanding is a property we assume humans have. Sometimes we use it metaphorically ("my program understands when the customer wants to change their pants") but in terms of computation... again I have no clue.

I generally have very few clues :)

replies(1): >>42141167 #
3. dilap ◴[14 Nov 24 21:01 UTC] No.42141167[source]▶
Personally I am convinced LLMs do have real understanding, because they seem to respond in interesting and thoughtfull ways to anything I care to talk to them about, well outside of any topic I would expect to be captured statistically! (Indeed, I often find it easier to get LLMs to understand me than many humans. :-)

There's also stuff like the Golden Gate Claude experiment and research @repligate shares on twitter, which again make me think understanding (as I conceive of it) is definitely there.

Now, are the conscious, feeling entities? That is a harder question to answer...