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346 points obscurette | 17 comments | | HN request time: 0.001s | source | bottom
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basilgohar ◴[] No.42116662[source]
As someone who's worked in EdTech for around two decades, I know why people think this. It's what a lot people here have already said. Education is what is failing, EdTech didn't magically solve this. Just like money, you can't just throw tech at education and expect it to solve anything.

There are too many profitable incentives to poor education that are conspiring to perpetuate it. An ill-educated populace is easier to manipulate, gravitate towards consumerism, and won't hold their leaders as accountable. Power generally resides with those who benefit from an ill-educated populace, so anything that would actually help educate children and people at large is discouraged.

I'll repeat what others have said here. Giving teachers the means with which to properly work with their students, and investing in students at a more individual level, is what's needed. Sadly, my refrain with regards to public education is that is has become little more than glorified babysitting. Those that succeed do so in spite of the system, and not because of it. Meanwhile, students that suffer from one or more disadvantagements (poverty, disability, social issues, mental or physical health issues, and so much more) tend to just...suffer more. And then they fall into cycles where preventable issues repeat or enhance into the next generation. They'll still spend all of their little income excessively, so profit is still to be had, or they'll end-up in prison, which, again, thanks to privatization, is also immensely profitable, so no problem there, right?

The system is setup to fail because that's what's profitable in the long run for those seeking such profits. And because they can lobby, and use their wealth to influence politics, it won't change. Something else needs to happen first.

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1. mbesto ◴[] No.42116938[source]
> It's what a lot people here have already said. Education is what is failing, EdTech didn't magically solve this.

To expand this more globally - anything that requires human interaction fails at scale. Healthcare, trade skills, education, housing, etc. is all "failing" to some degree no matter how much technology we throw at it. The costs continually go up and the value isn't paired to it.

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2. jppope ◴[] No.42117062[source]
Seems like you're listing highly regulated industries not human interaction.
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3. consteval ◴[] No.42117341[source]
These industries, more or less, need to be highly regulated because we've faced the alternative and it's worse. The quality of education went up SIGNFICANTLY when the state took more control over it.
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4. czinck ◴[] No.42117997[source]
To put a name on this, it's the Baumol effect, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baumol_effect. Essentially, as productivity increases in most industries (from automation), it drives up labor costs in the industries that can't be automated (healthcare, education, performing arts, etc), which drives up the price of those services (healthcare), or drives down the quality to find a market clearing price (increasing student to teacher ratios).
5. seabass-labrax ◴[] No.42118016{3}[source]
Part of that is questionable, because the state gets to set the means by which the quality of education is measured. However, a more objective measure is the extent of education; certainly, the introduction of national education has always produced a much greater literacy rate.
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6. floatrock ◴[] No.42118544[source]
> anything that requires human interaction fails at scale

What do you mean by "fails"? It doesn't have the zero-marginal-cost dynamic favored by the investor class of the tech industry?

Don't confuse "you can't scale human interactions" with "human interaction fails at scale". The former is talking about the venture-capital-accelerated winner-takes-all business strategy, the latter is a misunderstanding of civil societies and living a rewarding life because you can only envision such things through the lens of owning a zero-marginal-cost process.

7. firejake308 ◴[] No.42118857[source]
I understand education and healthcare, but how do trade skills and housing require human interaction? For housing especially, a lot of foreign/remote investors can own houses and just collect rent checks from tenants in a pretty hand-off manner. Housing is supply-limited, sure, and heavily regulated, sure, but I don't think it requires human interaction, and certainly not to the scale of education or healthcare.
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8. hackable_sand ◴[] No.42118991[source]
> anything that requires human interaction fails at scale
9. hooverd ◴[] No.42119147[source]
Regulations are neutral. Some are bullshit. Some are written in blood.
10. consteval ◴[] No.42119320{4}[source]
The thing is extent and execution are intrinsically linked. Meaning, unregulated markets mean the extent will be limited because people will just choose not to get educated. Which makes sense, if they themselves are uneducated they don't have perfect reasoning skills or future outlook.

A market relies on the participants having visibility and ability. They need to see the alternatives, understand them deeply, and have access to them. Turns out you can't do that in a bunch of markets, education being one of them. So, it can never be a true free market.

11. naijaboiler ◴[] No.42121131[source]
Is not the absolute cost that goes up per se. It’s the cost relative to cost of things that scale. Education, nursing care, even doctoring all have significant human to human interaction at a personal level for there to be success. When the cost of other things like commodities drop 100x, those human interactions services don’t and therefore become relatively more expensive even despite massive productivity gains those fields
12. mbesto ◴[] No.42126560[source]
> trade skills

Who installs pipes, builds walls, installs electrical conduits? Humans.

> just collect rent checks from tenants in a pretty hand-off manner

Dwellings still require regular power, heat, security, support and regular maintenance. Those all require human beings.

13. snowfarthing ◴[] No.42140354{3}[source]
Did it really improve, though? There's evidence that Colonial/Revolutionary-Era American populace was highly educated, and that education had been gradually going downhill as the United States gradually adopted the Prussian model of education -- an education system designed to produce loyal soldiers and interchangeable worker widgets.

There is a strong tendency to recognize "market failure" as a problem -- but it is rather rare to see people discuss "regulatory failure". Yet there is this endless cycle of increasing regulation, where a politician or bureaucrat identifies a problem with the market -- real or imagined -- and then offers a solution. That solution the situation even worse, but politicians and bureaucrats will blame this on "market failure", and then insist on another solution ... and so it goes.

Yes, it's true that some regulation is necessary. But how much effort is put into place to make sure that the regulations put in place do what they are supposed to do? What effort is put into place to identify the nasty side effects of otherwise good regulations? The assumption that all regulations exist because the alternative is worse is deeply flawed.

And that's even before we get into the fact that regulations have their limits: people can handle only so many rules, particularly if they are onerous, and will start ignoring regulations when it's the only way to get things done. An example of this is a report from the FAA, where they identified around 2,000 pilots who didn't report disqualifying health conditions. Why? Because the conditions were quickly resolved, and their livelihoods depended on flying, so they didn't want to go through the hassle of waiting three months for their license to fly to be cleared again. What's worse, of the 2,000 or so pilots who did this, only 4 or so had serious-enough conditions that they shouldn't have been flying!

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14. consteval ◴[] No.42143472{4}[source]
> Did it really improve, though?

Yes.

> There's evidence that Colonial/Revolutionary-Era American populace was highly educated

I've never seen this evidence, but to speculate: probably since the colonist were, well, colonists, and literally building every industry from the ground up, they had to be.

After this though, in the 19th century, we knew most people could not read or write.

> an education system designed to produce loyal soldiers and interchangeable worker widgets

True, but worker widgets who can read.

> There is a strong tendency to recognize "market failure" as a problem -- but it is rather rare to see people discuss "regulatory failure"

I experience the opposite, but granted I live in Texas. The default mode is regulations are bad, and the less the better.

> The assumption that all regulations exist because the alternative is worse is deeply flawed

It's not an assumption, it's an observation. When it comes to education and others.

The thing is the free market relies on there being a free market. Not every market can be a free market. That's a problem. I've already explained how education can never be a free market above, but another example is healthcare. I can't compete in healthcare because of the HUGE time investment in schooling. I also have zero choice as a consumer - I just go to the nearest hospital. There's also no visibility in price because you have to diagnose me first, and that can be wrong or things can pop up later.

Healthcare is not, and will never be, a free market. Even now the US has a largely socialized healthcare system, it just so happens to be the worst socialized healthcare system. Primarily because we've handed it off to the private sector, who have incentives to actually make it worse. Meaning, insurance thrives when you receive less care. The inefficiency is built into the profit motive, and you can't get around it.

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15. snowfarthing ◴[] No.42216692{5}[source]
> I've never seen this evidence, but to speculate: probably since the colonist were, well, colonists, and literally building every industry from the ground up, they had to be.

I would strongly recommend looking into John Taylor Gatto's "An Underground History of American Education", at least as a starting point. Indeed, that is where I learned that a literacy drop between WWI and WWII raised eyebrows, but when it came to the Vietnam era, the Army had to investigate "How can so many people fake illiteracy?" and found that the answer was "They aren't faking it."

> After this though, in the 19th century, we knew most people could not read or write.

Now it's your turn: I'd like to see your evidence for this.

> True, but worker widgets who can read.

That's assuming that everyone (including educators and politicians) think reading is important.

>> There is a strong tendency to recognize "market failure" as a problem -- but it is rather rare to see people discuss "regulatory failure"

> I experience the opposite, but granted I live in Texas. The default mode is regulations are bad, and the less the better.

Have you considered the possibility that what is happening in Texas is an attempt to recognize harmful regulations, and weed them out so that people can have more freedom to function?

>> The assumption that all regulations exist because the alternative is worse is deeply flawed

> It's not an assumption, it's an observation. When it comes to education and others.

I cannot help but worry that your observations are cherry-picked. There's plenty of regulatory fail to observe for the few who look to observe it.

> The thing is the free market relies on there being a free market. Not every market can be a free market. That's a problem. I've already explained how education can never be a free market above, [ed: I can't find that explanation] but another example is healthcare. I can't compete in healthcare because of the HUGE time investment in schooling. I also have zero choice as a consumer - I just go to the nearest hospital. There's also no visibility in price because you have to diagnose me first, and that can be wrong or things can pop up later.

> Healthcare is not, and will never be, a free market. Even now the US has a largely socialized healthcare system, it just so happens to be the worst socialized healthcare system. Primarily because we've handed it off to the private sector, who have incentives to actually make it worse. Meaning, insurance thrives when you receive less care. The inefficiency is built into the profit motive, and you can't get around it.

I have both experienced and seen what health care in Great Britain is like, and based on the statistics I hav come across over time, to this day, to suggest Great Britain's health care is better than America's is a big stretch. Something similar can be said of Canadian health care (Pittsburg, PA, has more MRI machines than all of Canada!), and certainly, Cuba's awful health care system should be considered "socialized". To the degree that American health care is better than these systems, it's largely because of the private aspects of it -- and what's worse, to the degree that it's harmful, it is because of government regulations that kill competition. How is it that the law requires that I have the freedom to choose where I want my car repaired, but that I must find an "in-network" doctor? Why can I purchase auto insurance from any company in any State, but I must have insurance sold in my home State? How the heck are these specific kinds of restrictions supposed to make health care better?!?

Many of the concerns you gave about health care apply to the car repair market too -- both in terms of insurance and in terms of car repairs and maintenance. Why is it that mostly-privatized car repair is market-friendly, but health care is not?

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16. consteval ◴[] No.42228961{6}[source]
I'm really not going to bother replying any further because I don't think it's worth it. You're fighting and uphill battle here - virtually every country has agreed that having the government control education is a good thing and has been successful.

Conservatives, in the past few years, have fallen into a new sphere of lunacy. Anti-vaccine, anti-education, anti-workplace safety, anti-everything.

I don't have the patience to stamp out every single opposition people come up with.

To me, the "problem" that you, and others, have with education is that the government is involved. Sorry, that is not an argument. Just as blindly supporting something makes one a sheep, blindly opposing something also makes someone a sheep.

Our education is as successful as it is due to our government, and that is not up for debate. I've already explained the problem with free markets and why some services, such as healthcare and education, do not apply to a market and literally cannot.

As a thought experiment, consider what makes a free market a free market. Now consider the feasibility of implementing that into healthcare and education (hint: impossible). Now, assume it is possible, and consider the consequences of it. How many millions of people would need to die before you start caring?

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17. snowfarthing ◴[] No.42240284{7}[source]
In my experience, it's been just as difficult to convince conservatives to let go of the notion that only government can solve problems, as it has been for liberals. For this kind of "lunacy", you generally have to go full-blown libertarian -- and very few people listen to libertarians.

As for free market health care and education: Are they really impossible, though? And if it's "purely" impossible, is it really impossible to introduce some fundamental free-market reforms, like school choice, or the ability to choose your own doctor?

As for "government-run education being successful" -- ever since I started school in the 1980s, government-run schools have been in crisis mode -- indeed, it's what's led to things like the Department of Education and No Child Left Behind. What's more, there is no evidence things are improving, and plenty of evidence that it's been degrading over time.

How many children's futures are you willing to cut off at the kneecaps until you finally admit that government education, particularly in the United States, has serious problems?