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    171 points belter | 20 comments | | HN request time: 0.787s | source | bottom
    1. IgorPartola ◴[] No.41895504[source]
    If I understand correctly, we experience time at nearly the speed of light. What I mean by that is that any particle’s 4 dimensional velocity vector has the magnitude of c which means that if it is mostly at rest in space then time has to be the major contributing factor but the magnitude of the vector. On the other hand something like a photon experiences to time at all as it moves through the 3 space dimensions at a total of c.
    replies(7): >>41895838 #>>41895843 #>>41895992 #>>41896270 #>>41897669 #>>41897752 #>>41902254 #
    2. crazydoggers ◴[] No.41895838[source]
    I believe that’s an accurate model, with the caveat that it’s all relative. There’s no universal reference frame. So for the photon and his pal photons, they experience time while you (in your reference frame sitting still) are the one moving at the speed of light and not moving through time.

    Edit: See below, the photon doesn’t have its own reference frame so they still don’t experience time.

    replies(2): >>41895852 #>>41897766 #
    3. Filligree ◴[] No.41895843[source]
    If you use seconds and light-seconds as the units instead of meters, then the magnitude of the vector is just a constant 1.

    Another way of putting that: This isn’t a vector at all, it’s just a direction. Treating it as a vector gives rise to silly statements like “one second per second”, which is yet another way to explain that it’s magnitude 1… because it’s a direction.

    replies(1): >>41896735 #
    4. Filligree ◴[] No.41895852[source]
    Photons absolutely do not experience time. The spacetime interval of any photon is always zero, and the spacetime interval tells you how much time any particle experiences. Note that it’s invariant.
    replies(1): >>41895869 #
    5. crazydoggers ◴[] No.41895869{3}[source]
    Yes you’re right.. the photon has no reference frame of its own then.

    So then that would just apply to massive objects with their own reference frames.

    6. itishappy ◴[] No.41895992[source]
    I've heard this described as "we all move at the speed of light." Also, since another way to describe alignment of two vectors is an angle, motion can be characterized by the angle it makes with the time axis.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=au0QJYISe4c

    7. dbsmith83 ◴[] No.41896270[source]
    A fidget spinner illustrates this for me--bear with me. When I spin it and it just stays at rest in my hand, it spins fast. But when I quickly move my hand carrying the spinner, you can see it slows down the spin rate, and then when I stop moving it, it speeds back up. While the mechanisms are entirely different (classical vs. relativistic) they both show motion can affect certain fundamental properties of a system, whether it be spin rate or the passage of time
    8. IgorPartola ◴[] No.41896735[source]
    Not really because a light second is meters.

    I mean like yes you can measure time and space with the same units in the way you suggest but then the concept of velocity changes as well.

    replies(1): >>41898027 #
    9. lacy_tinpot ◴[] No.41897669[source]
    You can't "experience" time. Experience is memory and memory is the only thing you can "experience". Whether that memory has anything to do with time as such is debatable. Personally I'd say no.
    replies(1): >>41897880 #
    10. crdrost ◴[] No.41897752[source]
    You have understood it about as well as the article did!

    Now, there is a huge nuance here, which is that you are moving near the speed of light, to certain observers. This is like the whole "relativ-" prefix in "relativity", you are at rest in your rest frame, you are moving very fast in some other rest frames. The cosmic muon crashing into Earth, sees you as time-dilated! So with that nuance "we experience time at nearly the speed of light" just becomes kind of a tautology like "we experience time how we experience time."

    But a better way to think about this is, you are about two meters high, you are about a meter wide, about a half-meter dorsoventrally... and about 30 000 000 m in the other direction, if we're looking at the human reaction time/blink-of-an-eye range of 0.1s (think about how 10fps video is at the cusp of being continuous and how 20Hz is where clicks stop sounding differentiated and instead start sounding like a bass note).

    What this means is that if we look at you relativistically, you kind of look like a big "rope" with worldlines of other atoms coming in, braiding into your body, eventually leaving... but the strands of this rope are bundled into these cells that have worldlines over 99.9999% parallel. (Atoms within those cells move faster, but you're probably at least 99.999% parallel even if we make that statement?) And that astonishing parallelism is precisely why relativity is not very intuitively plausible to us.

    replies(2): >>41898399 #>>41902976 #
    11. aszantu ◴[] No.41897766[source]
    I still don't get it, photon comes into existence and then slams into a thing for us to notice the existence. Between the being born and slamming into something time passes, no?
    replies(1): >>41899675 #
    12. soulofmischief ◴[] No.41897880[source]
    You're thinking of subjective experience, conscious perception of time. OP is referring more generally to the local speed of causality in a system at rest.
    13. stouset ◴[] No.41898027{3}[source]
    I think that’s GP’s point. If you take at face value that your speed through spacetime is constant and that the only thing that can vary is the magnitude distributed through (x, y, z, t), then the only important component of your spacetime velocity is its angle in 4D space (e.g., your “direction”).

    But also our own personal velocity is stationary. We (AIAU, IANAP) always perceive our own velocity vector as (0, 0, 0, 1). When we undergo acceleration it only ever affects the directional components of every other part of the universe, not our own experiential frame.

    replies(1): >>41902337 #
    14. ByThyGrace ◴[] No.41898399[source]
    > and about 30 000 000 m in the other direction, if we're looking at the human reaction time/blink-of-an-eye range of 0.1s

    So: distance over time, but is the time dimension only measurable in distance over time? Is there a purely time unit, or does that not make sense when speaking of spacetime?

    replies(1): >>41901603 #
    15. hhejrkrn ◴[] No.41899675{3}[source]
    For everything around it .. But not for the photon?
    replies(1): >>41900989 #
    16. aszantu ◴[] No.41900989{4}[source]
    how do you know?
    17. crdrost ◴[] No.41901603{3}[source]
    Yeah normal time units still exist in relativity, clocks gotta clock.

    But ratber it's that there exists an operation which is almost entirely like rotation, but it rotates x, y, or z into w=ct, where w is measured in meters just like x,y,z are, but t is measured in time units, and c is the speed of light converting between them. Instead of a rotation's formula with sines and cosines like

        x' = x cos θ + y sin θ
        y' = y cos θ – x sin θ
        (x')² + (y')² = x² + y²
    
    relativity has a slightly different set of functions sinh and cosh that are very closely related to sin and cos. (Sine and cosine have Taylor series where the polynomials alternate, sin(x) = x – x³/6 + x^5/120 – ..., and sinh and cosh have the exact same Taylor series with all + signs rather than alternating + – + –.) The analogous expressions are then,

        w' = w cosh φ — x sinh φ
        x' = x cosh φ — w sinh φ
        (w')² – (x')² = w² – x².
    
    This transformation, in relativity, is just built into how any acceleration works. So whenever you accelerate, even in pre-relativistic physics, you expect to see the emergence of some Doppler shifts. In relativity these shifts are not quite as strong as expected from the classical theory, and as a result when you subtract off the Doppler shifts and try to say "what has happened" you get an answer that "the meaning of the present moment, which historically defined a 3D universe frozen at a point in time, identifies a different 3D slice of the 4D spacetime." And this is what "rotates", it's the rotation of the plane that you think is the "present moment".

    The fact that you are discretely "you" about ten times per second, I am taking as a fact of biology. But if you try to convert that biology into physics, that's where you convert t into w to get that t=0.1s converts to w = 30,000 km.

    18. scotty79 ◴[] No.41902254[source]
    It's better to think that our 4 velocity always has a magnitude of 1 and use c only as a scaling factor necessary because our weird choice to use different units for time and space.

    Acceleration is a rotation in this weird 3+it dimensions.

    I think it better to think about 4 velocity as a unitless quantity. Because our intuitions about units and dimensions are formed by 3 dimensional space where every dimension can be swapped with any other and everything is still the same. 1 meter rotated is still 1 meter. Doesn't become 0.56m/s

    19. scotty79 ◴[] No.41902337{4}[source]
    It's a really funny way of thinking about things. That when your rotate, you don't, instead you rotate entire universe around you. Yet, somehow, how hard is it to rotate has nothing to do with what's in the universe but everything to do with you.

    Moving your point of view from one inertial frame of reference to another is easy enough, but there should be some overarching mathematical construct that can model all the inertial frames and their relationships at once. Phenomenons such as energy, mass and acceleration should be easier to understand within it.

    20. strogonoff ◴[] No.41902976[source]
    One of the big a-ha! moments for me was when I realized it’s possible to try (of course, impossible truly) to visualize things and people as smeared over the fourth dimension. In my case it was from trying to pinpoint what is good design, which is done in four dimensions, even if not consciously.