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Using Euro coins as weights (2004)

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180 points Tomte | 28 comments | | HN request time: 1.784s | source | bottom
1. kd5bjo ◴[] No.41894883[source]
At one point, I worked out that US dimes, quarters, and half dollars all weigh $20/lb (iirc), which made the task of counting my accumulated change a lot easier.
replies(2): >>41894928 #>>41895405 #
2. Someone ◴[] No.41894928[source]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coins_of_the_United_States_dol... confirms that, and shows it works for dollar coins, too (I’m using the weights in grains because that makes the comparison easier; a pound is exactly 7,000 grains)

Dime: 35 gr

Quarter: 87.5 gr

Half-dollar: 175 gr

Dollar: 350 gr

replies(2): >>41895206 #>>41898550 #
3. t-3 ◴[] No.41895206[source]
Nickel is ~5 grams. Dollar bill is ~1 gram.
replies(1): >>41895294 #
4. JKCalhoun ◴[] No.41895294{3}[source]
I like how easy it is to remember nickel == 5 g.
replies(1): >>41895581 #
5. kragen ◴[] No.41895405[source]
That's because that was the price of silver. The mint was for many centuries a way to get your precious metals divided into units of standardized weights that were stamped to certify their authenticity, thus facilitating commerce, though frequently rulers succumbed to the temptation of "debasing" them by diluting the precious metals with so-called "base" (in the sense of "low", "contemptible") metals such as tin, lead, and zinc.

So quarters weren't worth 25¢ because the government said so; they were worth 25¢ because they were made out of 25¢ worth of silver.

That's the same reason "peso" means "weight" and the "shekel" and "pound" take their name from units of weight.

This ended in 01965 in the USA, followed by the end of the gold standard, since which the dollar has lost 96% of its value relative to the precious metals that used to define it. The consensus among economists is that this is a good thing because it prevents deflation. I'm not sure.

replies(2): >>41895468 #>>41900050 #
6. swores ◴[] No.41895468[source]
Off topic, but may I ask why you use a leading zero when writing the year? (01965 rather than 1965)

You're not the only person I've seen do it on this site, and I can't recall ever seeing it not on this site, so I'm wondering if its because you're in the habit (or wanting to be in the habit) for some technical thing you do like working on a database that needs years in that format, or if there's some reason you feel that its better to write them that way in prose?

replies(4): >>41895520 #>>41898358 #>>41899257 #>>41902587 #
7. mandmandam ◴[] No.41895520{3}[source]
It's a Long Now Foundation concept [0]. The idea is to encourage people to think on a more civilizational time scale, and avoid another 'millenium bug' problem in ~7095 years.

0 - https://longnow.org/about/

replies(4): >>41895529 #>>41898292 #>>41898375 #>>41901757 #
8. swores ◴[] No.41895529{4}[source]
Ah, thanks for the explanation.
9. ProllyInfamous ◴[] No.41895581{4}[source]
The "ten US nickles is always 50g" mantra has helped me detect several defective scales (whether intentional or not, I want accuracy).
10. AStonesThrow ◴[] No.41898292{4}[source]
I am relieved that when archaeologists download HN archives 7095 years from now, they won't be confused about which "1965" we were discussing!

https://xkcd.com/1683/

11. lynguist ◴[] No.41898358{3}[source]
If you dig into this person’s posting history and also if you read regularly on HN for a couple years you will notice that it is actually this very user that deliberately uses the 0 prefixed 5 digit year numbers, and also goes out of their way to include year numbers into their posts to make people ask this question.
replies(1): >>41903369 #
12. dredmorbius ◴[] No.41898375{4}[source]
A somewhat frequently raised question:

<https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&que...>

<https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&que...>

13. dredmorbius ◴[] No.41898550[source]
Note that the names for the first three coins are all units of subdivision. "Quarter" and "half" most obviously, dime comes from the Latin decima, meaning "one tenth". The equivalent Roman coin was the denarius.

"Nickel" and "penny" break that pattern, with the first referencing the composition of the coin (originally called a "half-dime"), and penny is a measure of weight, varying by locale. The British penny is 1/240 of a Tower pound (later decimalised to 1/100 in the 1960s), whilst an American pennyweight (used for example in reference to nails) is 1/1000th of a pound.

<https://www.etymonline.com/word/nickel>

<https://www.etymonline.com/word/penny>

14. numpad0 ◴[] No.41899257{3}[source]
no one uses 0-based indexes[0] for references elsewhere, either.

0: this

15. Eisenstein ◴[] No.41900050[source]
> since which the dollar has lost 96% of its value relative to the precious metals that used to define it.

Why is this important?

replies(1): >>41900326 #
16. kragen ◴[] No.41900326{3}[source]
It may not be, but, as I said, economists generally believe it to be important. It's a very noticeable departure from the previous 180 or so years, during which time it had lost about 50% of its value by that standard. I'm not saying, for example, that the US currency will inevitably collapse due to a Zimbabwe-style hyperinflationary spiral, although that is a thing that many fiat currencies have done going back to the Song, nor that commodity money such as silver coinage is immune to inflation—coinage debasement is even older than paper-money hyperinflation.

Economists generally believe that the US's gradual shift from commodity money to fiat money over the period 01932–01971 was beneficial.

But I suspect that the shift to a fiat-money basis may be having some effects on the economy that are not well understood.

replies(1): >>41901138 #
17. Eisenstein ◴[] No.41901138{4}[source]
I was asking why it is important for the currency value to be reflected in the value of a precious metal. My understanding is that precious metals were used historically because of rarity, the ease of working with them to make currency, and the difficulty of counterfeiting. All of those things can be transferred to modern banknotes, so I wonder what the value making the dollar's market price equal to the market price of a specific amount of metal.

Inflation is something that is generally considered good by economists because it allows for growth. If the money supply is fixed at how much of a certain metal you have mined, then the economy cannot expand without the money deflating. Deflation completely stops growth because no one will lend, and people will be reluctant to spend something that gets more valuable over time.

replies(1): >>41902438 #
18. saagarjha ◴[] No.41901757{4}[source]
Ok, and what happens in 97975 years? I guess the Long Now people didn't think that far ahead, did they?
replies(1): >>41902252 #
19. kragen ◴[] No.41902252{5}[source]
You mean in the year 099999?
replies(1): >>41912230 #
20. kragen ◴[] No.41902438{5}[source]
Right, that's precisely the currently fashionable belief system as I understand it. But I'm not entirely comfortable praising the US economic system in the fiat-money era 01971–02024 by comparison to the previous 53 years, 01918–01971, which were the last 53 years of the commodity-money era there, except for a short break in the 01920s. I think everyone agrees that the US economy developed in a qualitatively better way from 01918 to 01971 than from 01971 to today, and that there was a sort of discontinuity around 01971.

It's possible that the mainstream economists are right, and that things would be far worse without the shift to fiat money, and it's just a coincidence that it happened at the same time everything started falling apart. We don't have anything like a controlled experiment. A lot of things happened to the US around 01971: the Vietnam War, the Civil Rights Movement, the end of the Apollo program, the War on Drugs, the New Age movement, CREEP, rapprochement with the PRC, the energy crisis, the Clean Air Act, second-wave feminism, Love Canal, etc. Most of these seem like things you'd naïvely expect to reduce domestic economic inequality, though, however detrimental they might have been to the residents of Taipei and especially My Lai. So why did it skyrocket instead?

PG has an innocent explanation: as I understand it, he thinks companies suddenly had to compete for superstars in the job market, abandoning seniority-based pay and thus creating the yuppie and growing wealth inequality. But a plausible alternative explanation is that fiat money rewards elites in nonobvious ways, enabling them to concentrate ownership of the economic base in a smaller and smaller subset of the population. Certainly that was the merit Marco Polo claimed for paper money when he became the first European to describe it in writing.

It's not a widely accepted theory today, more associated with crackpots actually, but it certainly isn't new.

replies(1): >>41902751 #
21. weberer ◴[] No.41902587{3}[source]
Oh, I assumed it was the zip code for Bretton Woods. Its funny how it works out to just the next state over.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bretton_Woods_system

22. Eisenstein ◴[] No.41902751{6}[source]
> I think everyone agrees that the US economy developed in a qualitatively better way from 01918 to 01971 than from 01971 to today

I don't think everyone agrees on that. There was a huge crash which posed an existential threat to capitalism in the middle of the first one.

> Most of these seem like things you'd naïvely expect to reduce domestic economic inequality, though, however detrimental they might have been to the residents of Taipei and especially My Lai. So why did it skyrocket instead?

What does any of this have to do with currency policy?

> But a plausible alternative explanation is that fiat money rewards elites in nonobvious ways, enabling them to concentrate ownership of the economic base in a smaller and smaller subset of the population.

Even more plausible than 'post-WWII cold war politics and domestic upheaval due to civil rights, the rise of the middle class, birth control and women getting control over their own lives caused society to shift in unexpected ways and gained reactions from all segments of society which shape our modern world'?

> It's not a widely accepted theory today, more associated with crackpots actually, but it certainly isn't new.

Yet you are doing that thing where it is obvious that you believe this but won't say it openly.

replies(1): >>41905264 #
23. stavros ◴[] No.41903369{4}[source]
Hmm, I checked the last two pages of their history and this is the only comment with a year, so it can't be that out of their way.
replies(1): >>41905292 #
24. kragen ◴[] No.41905264{7}[source]
I think it's a worthwhile idea to explore, but most worthwhile ideas to explore are still actually wrong. You can't know which until you explore them, which I haven't done in this case.

Probably you would benefit from learning to engage with people capable of seriously considering ideas without embracing them, because it seems like you're looking for some kind of partisan struggle instead.

replies(1): >>41906570 #
25. kragen ◴[] No.41905292{5}[source]
I'm puzzled about what sorts of discussions of historical coinage policies lynguist is used to reading that don't mention specific years.
26. 082349872349872 ◴[] No.41906570{8}[source]
Anyone interested in exploration might do well to take a look at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bancor#Proposed_revival

(I'm not going to, because currency arguments existed well before 1971; eg https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_silver#Climax . But if any of you all find anything, I'm all ears...)

replies(1): >>41907703 #
27. kragen ◴[] No.41907703{9}[source]
I'd forgotten about the bancor, thanks!
28. saagarjha ◴[] No.41912230{6}[source]
Ok so the goal is to just have a leading zero at all times?