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245 points proberts | 21 comments | | HN request time: 1.957s | source | bottom

I'll be here for the few hours and then again at around 1 pm PST for another few hours. As usual, there are countless possible topics and I'll be guided by whatever you're concerned with. Please remember that I can't provide legal advice on specific cases for obvious liability reasons because I won't have access to all the facts. Please stick to a factual discussion in your questions and comments and I'll try to do the same in my answers. Thanks!

Previous threads we've done: https://news.ycombinator.com/submitted?id=proberts.

1. iluvcommunism ◴[] No.41877791[source]
I remember watching the company I worked for in California lay off Americans and replace them with Indians. For all the talk about “prevailing wage” and “shortage of talent,” I just remember seeing it with my own eyes. One guy worked there till he was in his 60’s, built the company’s entire software, yet was kicked to the curb.
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2. briandear ◴[] No.41878386[source]
I worked for Best Buy. Entire teams fired but first had to train the Indian Accenture replacements. Entirely their right to fire us but don’t you dare say there is a “talent shortage.” There is definitely a talent shortage — of talent willing to work for $20/hour. In the jobs I’m seeing now, what used to be $65/hour jobs are now $48/hour. I remember making $90/hour a few years ago — now similar levels one would be very lucky to find $50/hour for a similar role.

I know H1Bs working at $40/hour for jobs their American counterparts are making $75/hour. They can’t move to higher paying roles at other companies because of the visa.

Also the termed “highly skilled” is an absolute joke. I can teach a person off the street to be “highly skilled” in a few weeks, based on the standard of what “highly skilled” means in H1B.

H1B needs to be highly reformed. It’s the tech equivalent of hiring construction workers from the Home Depot parking lot and paying under the table wages. I am not generally a fan of tariffs, but I suggest a 100% tariff on H1B wages paid by the hiring company. And that tariff would be a sliding scale — the more H1Bs you hire, the higher the tariff. If you need that foreign engineer so badly, paying $100/hour shouldn’t be a hardship. That would incentivize hiring the American/permanent resident at $80/hour. We’d find that “shortage” going away pretty quickly. Drive up the costs of Accenture/Infosys/etc., to make them unattractive. The only reason those companies exist is to provide cheap labor to companies like Best Buy, etc. The money collected from that tariff can be used to fund tax breaks for companies that don’t hire H1Bs. H1B isn’t about highly skilled labor. It’s about “highly” skilled cheap labor.

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3. beretguy ◴[] No.41878472[source]
I'm bookmarking this. Thank you.
4. oneplane ◴[] No.41878755[source]
Is there any data about H1B for large workforce "suppliers" vs. for individuals?

As far as I know, H1B doesn't allow you to be an Accenture in India, and ship people to the US (even if they'd be at Accenture in the US).

That said, for companies like Best Buy, H1B is just a tool, and if they want to pay less, they will find a way to pay less. What they will not do is pay you more. Instead of moving people around, they might opt to move the office to a different country. Writing software isn't bound to any location, so maybe making moving people harder will just end up making moving offices more attractive, the net result being even less than what you have now.

Maybe it's pure corporate greed, or short-term thinking or late-stage capitalism, but I doubt it can all be pinned on some sort of migration abuse.

5. jorvi ◴[] No.41878981[source]
I can't speak to Indian replacements, but I remember reading on here that the people at Google MV were furious that the Python team got completely disbanded and reconstituted in Munich.

Obviously this was to lower wage costs, but I was reading that and was in awe of the entitlement. Like.. the jobs belong to US personnel or to no one, EU devs don't deserve them?

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6. p0w3n3d ◴[] No.41879178[source]
when money is the only KPI for the management, it must end this way...
7. lorandia ◴[] No.41879179[source]
I wonder why they don't have h1b's for sports teams? Those players get paid an awful lot. Could easily outsource it to someone passing a certification exam and having a fake degree.
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8. inanutshellus ◴[] No.41879237{3}[source]
Any team replaced for cost savings is going to feel insulted and demeaned.

Them whinging is not them being entitled or intending to insult you, they're just defending their self worth, just like you're doing by defending the jobs having come to your area.

Imagine the team had been replaced by fresh college greenhorns using the same seats. The rhetoric would still be the same outrage and resentment.

9. the_clarence ◴[] No.41879278[source]
This just happened to a company I used to work for. Now they have a bunch of people in India working remotely for cheap.
10. tubalcain ◴[] No.41879370[source]
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11. pdutt111 ◴[] No.41879418[source]
There are 600k H1B holders in total in the USA so they're not taking as many jobs as you think they are. $40 per hour is the minimum requirement by law for H1B (https://day1cpt.org/news/understanding-h-1b-minimum-salary-r...) and also the average is $80 for H1B holders (https://www.forbes.com/sites/stuartanderson/2023/06/05/immig...)

In FY 2021, 66% of approved H-1B beneficiaries earned a master’s degree or higher compared to the 13% of americans with masters degree

Now coming to indians in the USA doing low paid labour - average indian household in USA earns 152,341 vs 74580 of US average.

get your facts right and say thank you to indians for making america great!

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13. cscurmudgeon ◴[] No.41879738{3}[source]
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14. lodisco ◴[] No.41880528{4}[source]
Not really, they're professional stars too. Writing code is easy. Writing good code is hard.

The H1b paradigm of a herd of people writing bad code and a few stars fixing that code is breaking down everywhere. Just look at HP, Oracle, Intel, etc. etc.

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15. cscurmudgeon ◴[] No.41880964{5}[source]
Why don’t you look at Google, Meta, etc?

1. A simple search would have shown the India is not at the bottom of the Olympics table.

2. Even if it is, what is the evidence it is due to genetics rather than culture?

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16. tubalcain ◴[] No.41881188{6}[source]
Per capita they are at the bottom.

To imply, as you have, that genetics doesn't influence sports skill to a great degree is preposterous.

I used that country as an example because it is the major source of workers for tech wage suppression in the states. There is no evidence of any danger that the same negative pressure on athletics will occur.

Rushing to accuse me of racism because you disagree is offensive.

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17. briandear ◴[] No.41883646{3}[source]
When Accenture has a huge offshore workforce to augment the H1Bs — they are still part of the problem, visa or not. H1B is tightly related to offshoring. They might have a few H1Bs with a client company, and then 50 or 100 offshore employees who are definitely not making $40 per hour. I personally trained Accenture employees who had a team in India doing the “real” work at far less than $40/hour. Most of Bangalore exists because of this business model.

The big “consulting” body shops are doing the labor equivalent of dumping. Dumping is a WTO violation, but seemingly doesn’t apply to labor.

My post isn’t about Indians. It’s about Indian companies that exploit the H1B system to create a pipeline to offshoring. I saw it with my own eyes.

“Average Indian household income is 152k” — the average Indian in the U.S. isn’t an H1B worker. This isn’t about Indians — this is about Indian “skilled labor” that’s filing a “shortage.” Indians are highly represented in many highly paid careers in the U.S. and the vast majority of Indians in the U.S. aren’t working “$40/hour” tech jobs.

And, a tariff on H1B (and offshore team) wages shouldn’t hurt H1Bs right? If there is actually a shortage, companies would be glad to fill the position. So how would that harm H1Bs? If a tariff on H1Bs results in fewer H1Bs, then clearly the shortage was a myth.

With Best Buy, I was in those meetings. The decision to hire Accenture had zero to do with any “shortage,” but it was to boost the company’s diminishing profits due to the impact of Covid on the retail space. So this argument that we need H1Bs and offshoring because of some “shortage” is a complete lie. If you fire your workers, then that’s the opposite of a shortage. You had a surplus of workers — otherwise why are we firing people?

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18. cscurmudgeon ◴[] No.41891309{7}[source]
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19. tubalcain ◴[] No.41895631{8}[source]
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20. shiroiushi ◴[] No.41901477{3}[source]
Personally I think a big part of this is the utterly absurd cost-of-living in the US. Why should it cost SO much more to hire US devs instead of devs in Munich, Germany, which is a world-leading economy and highly technological nation? This isn't quite like moving jobs from the US to Chile or India. Perhaps it has something to do with the ridiculous housing costs in the US, plus the ridiculous healthcare costs, plus the ridiculous transportation costs (you don't need a car in Munich), plus the ridiculous cost of eating in a restaurant (no 20% tipping in Munich), I could go on and on.

I really think the US is pricing itself out of the market in many places, and I almost never see anyone actually address this in discussions about international economics.

21. pdutt111 ◴[] No.41913722{4}[source]
US loves when capitalism works for US and it’s bad otherwise. Outsourcing will still happen even if you ban H1b. Maybe try asking lawmakers to sign in some proper workers protections!! if you allow companies to treat employees as dirt don’t be surprised when they do. No one should be able to kick you to the curb if you’ve spent your whole life at a place.