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61 points harporoeder | 4 comments | | HN request time: 0.001s | source
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politelemon ◴[] No.41874187[source]
This feels like perfect being the enemy of good enough. There are examples where the system falls over but that doesn't mean that it completely negates the benefits.

It is very easy to get blinkered into thinking that the specific problems they're citing absolutely need to be solved, and quite possibly an element of trying to use that as an excuse to reduce some maintenance overhead without understanding its benefits.

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creatonez ◴[] No.41874198[source]
Its benefits are very much completely negated in real-world use. See https://blog.yossarian.net/2023/05/21/PGP-signatures-on-PyPI... - the data suggests that nobody is verifying these PGP signatures at all.
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dig1 ◴[] No.41874468[source]
I stopped reading after this: "PGP is an insecure [1] and outdated [2] ecosystem that hasn't reflected cryptographic best practices in decades [3]."

The first link [1] suggests avoiding encrypted email due to potential plaintext CC issues and instead recommends Signal or (check this) WhatsApp. However, with encrypted email, I have (or can have) full control over the keys and infrastructure, a level of security that Signal or WhatsApp can't match.

The second link [2] is Moxie's rant, which I don't entirely agree with. Yes, GPG has a learning curve. But instead of teaching people how to use it, we're handed dumbed-down products like Signal (I've been using it since its early days as a simple sms encryption app, and I can tell you, it's gone downhill), which has a brilliant solution: it forces you to remember (better to say to write down) a huge random hex monstrosity just to decrypt a database backup later. And no, you can't change it.

Despite the ongoing criticisms of GPG, no suitable alternative has been put forward and the likes of Signal, Tarsnap, and others [1] simply don't cut it. Many other projects running for years (with relatively good security track records, like kernel, debian, or cpan) have no problem with GPG. This is 5c.

[1] https://latacora.micro.blog/2019/07/16/the-pgp-problem.html

[2] https://moxie.org/2015/02/24/gpg-and-me.html

[3] https://blog.cryptographyengineering.com/2014/08/13/whats-ma...

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1. wkat4242 ◴[] No.41874529[source]
Yeah I still use pgp a lot. Especially because of hardware backed tokens (on yubikey and openpgp cards) which I use a lot for file encryption. The good thing is that there's toolchains for all desktop OSes and mobile (Android, with openkeychain).

I'm sure there's better options but they're not as ubiquitous. I use it for file encryption, password manager (pass) and SSH login and everything works on all my stuff, with hardware tokens. Even on my tablet where Samsung cheaped out by not including NFC I can use the USB port.

Replacements like fido2 and age fall short by not supporting all the usecases (file encryption for fido2, hardware tokens for age) or not having a complete toolchain on all platforms.

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2. nick__m ◴[] No.41874617[source]
I use pcks11 on my yubikeys, would I gain something by using the PGP functionality instead?
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3. wkat4242 ◴[] No.41874983[source]
Easier tooling. At least on Linux. PKCS11 requires a dynamically linked library (.so) which you pass to programs using it (like SSH) which is a bit annoying and because it's a binary linking it's not an API you can easily debug. It tends to just crash especially with version mismatches. The GPG agent API is easier for this. It works over a socket and can even be forwarded over SSH connections.

Usually you end up using OpenSC/OpenCT for that. Also the tooling to manage the virtual smartcards is usually not as easy. I haven't used PIV for this (which is probably what you use on the yubikey to get PKCS11) but it was much harder to get going than simply using GPG Agent/scdaemon/libpcscd and the command "gpg card-edit" to configure the card itself.

It's still not quite easy but I found it easier than PKCS11. I used that before with javacards and SmartHSM cards. The good thing about the PIV functionality is that it integrates really well with Windows active directory, which PGP of course doesn't. So if you're on Windows, PIV (with PKCS11) is probably the way to go (or Fido2 but it's more Windows Hello for Business rather than AD functionality then, it depends whether you're a legacy or modern shop).

The big benefit of yubikeys over smartcards is that you can use the touch functionality to approve every use of the yubikey, whereas an unlocked smartcard will approve every action without a physical button press (of course because it doesn't have such a button).

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4. aborsy ◴[] No.41875645{3}[source]
I second this!