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259 points zdw | 1 comments | | HN request time: 0.317s | source
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pkolaczk ◴[] No.41835074[source]
I don’t buy this explanation. The FM modulation uses a much higher bandwidth than AM. The distance between channels on FM radio is 200 kHz compared to only 9 kHz on AM. That’s more than 20x more bandwidth for FM. On AM, no matter how deeply you modulate the carrier, the bandwidth will not exceed twice the bandwidth of the input signal. On FM, the deeper you modulate it, the wider the output spectrum will be, and it can easily exceed the bandwidth of the input signal.

In addition to that, the whole FM band is much higher frequency, while I guess quite a lot of noise, especially burst noise caused by eg thunderstorms is relatively low frequency. So it’s not picked up because it’s out of band.

Any noise that falls inside the channel does get picked up by the receiver regardless of modulation. However because the available bandwidth is so much higher than the real bandwidth of the useful signal, there is actually way more information redundancy in FM encoding, so this allows to remove random noise as it will likely cancel out.

If I encoded the same signal onto 20 separate AM channels and then averaged the output from all of them (or better - use median filter) that would cancel most of random noise just as well.

Also another thing with modulation might be that if there is any narrow-band non-white noise happening to fall inside the channel (eg a distant sender on colliding frequency), on AM it will be translated as-is to the audible band and you’ll hear it as a single tone. On FM demodulation it will be spread across the whole output signal spectrum, so it will be perceived quieter and nicer by human ear, even if its total energy is the same. That’s why AM does those funny sounds when tuning, but FM does not.

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arghwhat ◴[] No.41835320[source]
The wider channels is the source of the available audio fidelity, but wider channels make you more exposed to noise, not less. A wider channel means listening to more noise sources, and having transmitter power stretched thinner for a much lower SNR.

In other words, the noise rejection of FM is what enabled the use of wider channels and therefore better audio quality. An analog answer before digital error correction.

In FM, the rejection is so strong that if you have two overlapping transmissions, you will only hear the stronger one assuming it is notably stronger. This in turn is why air traffic still use AM where you can hear both overlapping transmissions at once (possibly garbled if carrier wave was off), and react accordingly rather than being unaware that it happened.

Technology moved on from both plain AM and plain FM a long time ago, and modern “digital” modulation schemes have different approach to interference rejection.

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pkolaczk ◴[] No.41835752[source]
Shannon theorem disagrees with you. The wider the channel, the MORE noise you can tolerate when transmitting signal at a given data rate.

In audio, the amount of information you need to transmit is naturally limited by the audio bandwidth (for FM truncated at about 15 kHz), so the useful signal bandwidth is fixed. Hence, if you transmit the same audio band over a broader channel of frequencies, you can tolerate more noise; or, for the same density of noise in the channel, you can get better SNR at the output. This is exactly what FM does. It uses the information multiplied in the most of that 200 kHz channel and projects it on 0-15 kHz band.

While you are right that a wider channel captures more noise in total, noise does not add up the same way as useful signal, because it’s random. Doubling the channel width only increases the amplitude of noise by sqrt(2).

There is no “magic noise rejection” coming from different ways of modulating the signal if all other things are the same. You can’t remove noise; you can’t magically increase SNR. If anything, FM makes the noise more pleasant to listen to and perceivably quieter by spreading non random, irregular noise over the whole band so it sounds more like white noise.

But it also allows to use wider channels, and increase the fidelity of the signal, including increasing SNR. But that’s thanks to using significantly wider channels than audio.

Also, it’s not like FM can use wider channels because of better SNR. FM can use wider channels because of how this modulation works - the spectrum of FM signal can be arbitrarily wide, depending on the depth of modulation. AM cannot do that. It only shifts the audio band up (and mirrors on both sides of the carrier). It can’t “spread it”.

Btw: this is a very similar phenomenon as when you average multiple shots of the same thing in photography, eg when photographing at night. By adding more frames (or using very long exposures) you obviously capture more total noise, but the amount of useful signal grows much faster because signal is correlated in time, but noise is not.

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1. hilbert42 ◴[] No.41870587[source]
"Shannon theorem disagrees with you. The wider the channel, the MORE noise you can tolerate when transmitting signal at a given data rate."

I've spent a lot of time on the development of broadcast-quality FM exciters (as I've posted on HN in the past) but I'm not go to debate the disadvantages/advantages of FM versus AM in depth as most points have already been covered in other posts, I'll just add this:

The quality of AM can be remarkably good if it's engineered with care. The math and engineering tell us that, and excellent results can be and are achieved in practice (as a longtime FM-er I say that about AM as it's just fact)!

The reason why AM has a bad reputation is it's history and background: AM broadcast and other shortwave (3-30MHz) bands are much more prone to impulse and atmospheric noise than VHF and up. Also, the historical nature of RF amp design and detection never put its primary focus on the linearity of RF/IF amps, etc. (good linearity is easily achievable these days).

My primarily reason for responding to this part of your post is to point out that when receiving AM signals one can take excellent advantage of using a wider bandwidth than the actual spectrum occupied by the modulation products.

Unfortunately, most of us don't know or have forgotten about the Lamb Noise Silencer circuit which uses a wider bandwidth signal to gate out impulse noise.

Here, two IF amplifiers [or one especially modified] are employed. The main IF uses the required (narrow) channel bandwidth and the second IF uses a wider bandwidth. Shannon et al tell us the wider signal can arrive at the detector before the narrow BW signal and thus can be used gate out noise in the latter stages and or detector.

In operation a properly designed Lamb Noise Silencer is remarkably effective in reducing AM static etc.

Whilst never used as a broadcast service, I'd posit that if AM with say 20Hz-20kHz audio were put into the existing FM spectrum (88-108MHz) with its lower AM noise background together with receivers that used the Lamb circuit then AM would essentially be indistinguishable in quality from the existing FM service. In fact, it could be even better with audio reaching 20kHz [extra 5kHz] and this could be achieved with a much better utilization of the spectrum (with AM's inherently lower channel bandwidth)—many more stations could be added to the band.

Of course, that would have been impractical back 80 or so years ago when the FM band was conceived for reasons that in the days of tubes the required local oscillator stability would have been very difficult to achieve (but a non issue these days).

Sometimes, we overlook the fact that our predecessors have already been there, thought about and have done these things.