Most active commenters
  • cyberax(5)
  • ithkuil(4)
  • oneshtein(3)

←back to thread

197 points amichail | 11 comments | | HN request time: 0.001s | source | bottom
Show context
freeqaz ◴[] No.41864625[source]
Is there anything stopping you from putting 2+ satellites out "closer" but in the path of the lensed light, capturing the light simultaneously, and then resolving the image via async computation later? I think this is called interferometry and I know it's hard because you need _very_ precise timing, but I'm curious if that would be possible or not. (Maybe you can get the timing in sync with atomic clocks, or by sending a laser to both from a central point that lets them keep time with some very tight tolerance?)

Weird idea but I wonder if there are ways to take this from "crazy tech" to "hard tech".

replies(3): >>41864716 #>>41864953 #>>41865336 #
cyberax ◴[] No.41865336[source]
> Is there anything stopping you from putting 2+ satellites out "closer" but in the path of the lensed light

The Sun. Literally.

Satellites have to be that far for the Einstein ring to be bigger than the apparent size of the solar disk.

Edit: to make it a bit more clear, the gravitational lens does not quite behave like a normal lens. Instead, you see the light from _behind_ the object. So if you're too close to the lensing object so that the Einstein ring is not larger than it, you'll just see a part of the object to be a bit more bright.

Also, the gravitational lens does not actually _focus_ the image, it distorts it into a band around the lensing object.

replies(2): >>41865506 #>>41867605 #
Dalewyn ◴[] No.41865506[source]
>to make it a bit more clear, the gravitational lens does not quite behave like a normal lens. Instead, you see the light from _behind_ the object.

Or to put it another way: A gravity lens bends space so that the light from behind an object curves around it while travelling straight.

replies(1): >>41865861 #
tbrownaw ◴[] No.41865861[source]
"Normal" lenses bend light more strongly farther out towards the edges. Gravitational lensing is shaped differently.
replies(1): >>41866154 #
Dalewyn ◴[] No.41866154[source]
The point is you aren't bending the light, no the light is travelling straight.

You are bending the dimension, the light travels straight through a bent dimension thus coming out curved.

I think that's mindblowing.

replies(2): >>41866394 #>>41871238 #
oneshtein ◴[] No.41866394[source]
No, light doesn't travel in straight lines.

Stronger gravity around massive objects causes slow down of the part of a light wave closer to object, compared to outer part.

This difference in speed, caused by _interaction_ between the photon and gravitational field of the body, results in the bending of the light's trajectory.

Bending of spacetime is just a simplification of this process to model that easier.

replies(3): >>41866695 #>>41866801 #>>41869789 #
1. codesnik ◴[] No.41866695[source]
from what I understand, slowing down would be true for a non-massless particle, but speed of light in vacuum is still the same around massive objects. What changes is the frequency of the light in this particular direction, and that "turns" it, probably because of self-diffraction?
replies(1): >>41867592 #
2. oneshtein ◴[] No.41867592[source]
Parts of photon cannot have different frequencies than whole photon. Both inner and outer parts of photon will make exact same number of fluctuations for the same period of time, but inner part will travel slightly smaller distance.

It's the same effect as in reflections, except that speed difference between air and solid objects is much much bigger, which results in sharp turning radius.

replies(1): >>41867848 #
3. ithkuil ◴[] No.41867848[source]
The speed of light is constant as measured from any observer. This has been verified experimentally to a very high precision and motivated the development of special and general relativity.

Otoh there is no requirement for a wave front to have the same frequency as when it started. A gradient in the gravitational field can cause a gradient in the gravitational redshift and thus "parts of photon" can very well have slightly different frequencies. If you recombine the paths and have the photon to interfere with itself, the interference pattern will capture the shape of such a wave function as affected by the distortion in the gravitational field.

IIRC this is the "standard" way of thinking about what's going on although marrying quantum mechanics and general relativity is still a work in progress.

If you buy into another theory that involves a variable speed of light, I'd love to hear more about what exact theory are you talking about since it seems to me that the burden of proof is on who makes the most extraordinary claims.

replies(2): >>41869953 #>>41871194 #
4. oneshtein ◴[] No.41869953{3}[source]
LIGO/Virgo/KAGRA found that speed of light in vacuum is affected by gravitational waves. This is verified experimentally to very high precision (1.2E-20m). If merge of neutron stars 200 megaparsec away can affect propagation of light here, on Earth, then why it cannot affect it near to the star?
replies(1): >>41870817 #
5. ithkuil ◴[] No.41870817{4}[source]
ok I think we're talking past each other. let's take a step back.

Let's imagine two points in space A and B, that are let's say 10 light minutes distant from each other. A signal going straight from A to B will thus take 10 minutes.

If point A sits in a strong gravitational field (e.g. it's orbiting a very heavy star), the signal will still take 10 light minutes to reach point B. (please tell me if you disagree with this assumption).

Now, let's place another heavy star at the midpoint between points A and B.

How long will it take for a photon emitted by A to reach B? Well, it won't reach it because it will hit the start that's in between.

But another photon whose direction wasn't directly in the path from A to B will follow a longer path, be deflected around the star and reach point B.

It will take longer than 10 minutes to reach point B because it will move along a longer path.

Do you agree this is what would happen?

replies(1): >>41871416 #
6. cyberax ◴[] No.41871194{3}[source]
> The speed of light is constant as measured from any observer.

That is not true. The "speed of light" in vacuum is not constant for all observers in the _general_ relativity. It is constant only _locally_, Lorentz invariance is a local symmetry in GR. Special relativity thus simply becomes an edge case of GR, where the Lorentz invariance is also a global symmetry.

That's how we get lensing, regions of space near a massive object are more "viscous" and the light moves slower through them.

7. cyberax ◴[] No.41871416{5}[source]
> How long will it take for a photon emitted by A to reach B? Well, it won't reach it because it will hit the start that's in between.

Now imagine that it's not a star, but a black hole with a small radius to make arguments easier. You shoot a photon slightly off the axis, and it gets deflected.

You can try to treat a photon as a moving object, and integrate the forces acting on it. Taking Lorentz transformations into account, of course.

But the thing is, your calculations will be off, and the experimental results won't match your predictions. You will need to take into account that the lightspeed near massive objects is _slower_ for distant observers.

Another example, suppose that you have a star surrounded by a massive cloud of fog. Somebody shoots a laser beam from one side of the fog bank to another, while you are far away from the star. The fog is there just to allow you to see the beam as it moves, it does not by itself slow the light.

But you will actually see the light moving _slower_ than lightspeed!

Or equivalently, you can take a clock that ticks every second. And if you lower that clock to the surface of a planet, you will see the clock ticking slower. And this is a very real effect, we have to correct for it in the GPS satellites.

replies(1): >>41872175 #
8. ithkuil ◴[] No.41872175{6}[source]
Yes the clock will indeed tick slower deep in the gravity well and that's the reason why from the point of view of the observer outside the gravity well the photon will be red shifted!

The speed of light is the same in both frames of reference. What you think is going affect the speed is actually the slowing of the proper time which effectively causes the photon to redshift.

replies(1): >>41873521 #
9. cyberax ◴[] No.41873521{7}[source]
> The speed of light is the same in both frames of reference. What you think is going affect the speed is actually the slowing of the proper time which effectively causes the photon to redshift.

No. You can drop a ruler onto the surface of Earth and measure from the Moon the time it takes the light to travel from one end of the ruler to the other. It will be slower than the lightspeed from your point of view. This is a real effect, we've measured it.

However, it will be lightspeed from the point of view of an Earth observer.

replies(1): >>41877003 #
10. ithkuil ◴[] No.41877003{8}[source]
Ok but that's exactly what it means when we say that clocks are ticking slower in a gravity well (after all you can implement a clock by bouncing light).

And this effect falls out directly from the warping of space-time described by general relativity

am I understanding correctly that you claim that the warping of space-time is just a mathematical trick and that the phenomena are better explained by just postulating they light slows down in a gravity well?

replies(1): >>41885108 #
11. cyberax ◴[] No.41885108{9}[source]
> am I understanding correctly that you claim that the warping of space-time is just a mathematical trick and that the phenomena are better explained by just postulating they light slows down in a gravity well?

Light slows down in gravity wells because the space-time is "denser" near massive objects. This is not a mathematical trick, this is actually a real effect.

It's also the reason for gravitational lensing, as the shortest path through a gravity well is not a straight line. Light can avoid the slowdown near the massive object, if it instead "goes around" it. The curved path is longer, but faster lightspeed along it compensates for the additional length.